{ "schema_version": 1, "text": "欢迎收听十字路口，我们关注新一代 AI 技术浪潮带来的行业新变化和创业新机会。十字路口是乔布斯对苹果公司的一个比喻，形容他站在科技与人文的十字路口，伟大的产品往往诞生在这里。我们长期观察 AI 创业，如果你正在做一件让你自己感到兴奋的事情，哪怕它还只是一个想法，我们都很愿意听你聊一聊。我会认真看每一条留言。嗨，我是 Koji，那本周十字路口的嘉宾呢，是张翼。那张翼呢，曾经是一个30亿美金的市值的上市公司，掌门1对1的创始人。当然他们也这个经历了双减的一夜归零的这样的故事。那四年前呢，张翼重新创业，他反而选择了一个我认为更慢也更难的赛道，是家庭的通用机器人。这家公司的名字叫做未来不远，最近刚完成了数亿规模的融资，也在今天啊，就我们播客发的这一天，他们推出了一款颜值很高的家庭机器人新品啊，F二。你好，张翼，欢迎来到十字路口。谢谢，你好，高迪。好，那我们还是从快问快答开始哈。请问张翼你的年龄？三十六。毕业的院校？上海交大。mbti 和星座。intj 摩羯。一句话介绍一下未来不远这家公司和 f 二这款产品。未来不远是一家一直专注于做家庭通用机器人的公司。这 f 二产品呢，比我们之前的 f 一产品呢，颜值更高，功能更强大，而且也是最终会交付到客户手里的机器人的形态。咱们目前融资的情况方便讲吗？我们前后一共融了三轮，原来是我团队自己投钱哈，然后一直到其实我们真正出来市场化融资是到去年底，我们非常确定我们这个产品能推向市场，能开始给大家试用，而且试用后很受欢迎。然后我们才正式出来融资，然后就从去年底到现在几个月吧。就快速的融了两轮。然后目前咱们的产品还没有开售，对吧？啊，我们目前是开租，在上海一些家庭里面就是可以预约开租啊，排队。团队的规模呢？主要是工程师哈，大概100人左右。创业前做过什么？创业前在创业，哈哈哈。然后在那个创业前在学校的时候，其实也在创业，嗯，就在边读书的时候边创业，对。然后我们今天肯定是要重点聊未来不远啊，要聊这个家庭通用的机器人，但是在那个之前还是想，就是我自己特别好奇啊，我身边其实蛮多朋友都经历了双减的。而我觉得张翼，可能你是经历双减的这些人里面，因为你当时公司已经上市了，然后30亿美金的市值，但是双减来的那一刻，你在哪里看到这个新闻的？当时我带着团队去一个做出海做得非常好的公司，当时在车上，应该是一些投资人吧，给我发了一个消息说啊，这个这个这个这个文件怎么这样？这是，Is it real？我看到这个文件，那一刻我觉得是一片空白的，就觉得说，是真的吗？就难以置信。什么时候你发现这是真的？其实确定它是真的。应该花了有半个月。这么久？对，我们觉得说这是会不会是个阶段性的事，所以我们减掉了一点人，然后就是看情况边走。但是半个月后，我记得我们以前有几个核心的投资人就跟我说，他说这个事是 real 的，你就公司那年我们做了100个亿，你就想100亿的公司，它的养这么多员工，它的月支出是多少？其实非常高的。对，所以一旦没有收入，你如果维持这么高的收入，你直接就整个公司就爆了。所以当时很多投资人说你你你不能再拖了，再拖就就，我今天就不会坐在这里了。对，所以后来确实很 serious 所以，后来剩下两个半月，我们确实没办法减到1000人以内。哇塞！对。就在你非常确定它是真的之后，开的第一个会是什么会啊？我们内部核心开了一个会，当然我其实已经那段最难受的记忆，我已经有点泛白了哈，真的从9万多人减到剩1000人以内的时候，那段我确实记忆有点泛白了，但是我我我记得当时就其实这个体量的减员是非常难受的。但对我来说哈，首先第一难受的是你很多兄弟嘛。然后 say goodbye 然后我还印象深刻，有些 hr 我们原来在全国五十几个城市都有分公司。嗯。然后都都很大，然后他把所有人就是 say goodbye 后，自己关灯出来，就是这样，所以很难受。所以这个体量的减人已经不是这种正常的减法了，就是一个个会开下去。从从我这个跟核心管理层讲完这个会，然后他们再一层层去向下去开会。那个会是一个什么样的气氛？它就是非常的这个，肃穆吗？还是和想象中不完全一样？说实话，我自己的会我已经完全空白了。我这，后脑勺有一撮白头发。嗯。就那个时候出来的。哦。然后，但是其他人的会，因为他们后来不断的口述给我，所以我是记得非常深刻的。我记得他们有很多会是一场会就几百个人，然后他一场场开下去的，因为否则大家不理解为什么要这么做，然后几百个人，然后现场就几个核心高管可能会分别出来讲这个事。然后有时候讲着讲着，有人现场就哭出来了。所以经历了双减的人，多多少少都会说对自己后面的人生选择都会产生非常大的影响。那你觉得这一段有对你再后来选择做未来不远，就做机器人有带来哪些影响吗？其实只要人生有巨大的波折，嗯。都会有很多的思考。无论是双节，还是其他人所经历的其他事情，只要有巨大的起伏，都会思考。比如说人生的意义是什么？对吧？我们到底是为什么而奋斗？我们应该何去何从？什么对我们是最重要的？但是如果你人生一直很顺利的时候，可能你就没时间，你也不会去思考这些事。对。所以呢，我觉得当然思考这事肯定是对自己的选择，因为毕竟你要花很长的去去消化这些事情，对吧？像我做机器人，中间也是隔了一年多嘛，其实这一年多也确实做了非常多的思考。啊，所以最后才做了一个决定。嗯，对。所以那一年是什么样的思考，让你最后指向了要去做机器人？当时其实我有一段时间 get lost 然后一段时间很伤心，然后然后也不用去公司。我以前天天去公司，就干到很晚。觉得就真的是有半年就不用去公司了，因为公司没事可做，然后也不敢去。在想做事情之前，我已经消化很长时间了，我已经思考很长段时间人生的意义是什么了。但我后来觉得人生还是应该参与这个世界的一点点变革，哪怕创造只有一点点贡献也是意义哈，至少对我这种人来说，我在老的时候回过头来看，这辈子不后悔，我觉得还是要做点事的。嗯。对，所以我后来想清楚这些事后，我就去包括硅谷待了一段时间，然后因为我原在交大，学那个电子信息工程。啊，所以啊，我很多同学在美国嘛，搞 ai 啊，搞什么，然后我就聊了很多人。所以我我当时做机器人是因为第一，这个我聊了很多这个事，当时 chatgpt 在3.0，没到3.5，但我觉得有机会。啊，我看完它的一些落地应用，觉得哎，很有意思，未来 maybe 能够落到一些东西上。第二呢，因为我原来学这个东西，所以我在学校时候也参加过很多这种比赛，但我们那也是比较早的，以前都是搞什么智能车啊，电子设计啊这种。然后哎，我觉得这可能可以结合，然后最后呢，我又在想一个事，就是因为我我做家庭做了很多年啊，我还是有些优势的啊，因为我很了解这这些用户啊。孩子啊，妈妈啊，爸爸啊，或者是家庭成员。首先这三个结合是不是可以做家庭机器人？嗯。而且呢，我当时想，如果我还要做一个事的话，这个事必须比以前大，否则我没有动力。对。所以呢，我当时觉得家庭机器人几十年后每人每户买一家，放在家里用，这是个极大概率事情。对，所以当时就也看了一圈哈，包括到曾格做那个 er。嗯。啊，当时也和曾格一起看一些各种机器人公司啊，看完我就想做机器人。刚才提到这个在一直寻找机会，而且一定要做一个比之前更大的事情，可能这样你才会有动力。有没有那么一个就关键时刻，你决定好了就是它了，我就是要 all in 开始干机器人了。我已经忘了哈，是谁就跟我说过这句话，就是20年后每家每户一定会买一个机器人。嗯。然后这句话非常适合我，我觉得这个事是一个确实是很有意义的事，而且有意义的事是因为现在没有人做，那我觉得我要做的事情一定不是有很多人已经在做，或很多人想去做的事，因为那多一个我没有意义。所以我觉得我觉得这个事是有前瞻性的。嗯。对，而且我觉得正确的事情最后一定会迎来好的结果，因为这个方向是正确的。嗯。家庭机器人现在没有人做。但是这个方向一定是正确的。嗯。对，最后一定会收到反馈。这很像是难而正确的事情。对。这一两年巨声大爆发的，尤其是今年这个春节过完年回来之后，各种融资的头条新闻就是一个接一个的。非常的疯狂。那你会认为自己提前了四年来做这个事情，你因为提前的这个时间段得到了哪些优势吗？当时为什么选机器人行业哈，而不是选 AI 就是说机器人提前的复利是比 AI 大的。嗯。因为 AI 这个它迭代太快了，因为它是个纯算法软件的事情，但机器人它是有软硬件结合的东西。一旦东西碰到软硬结合呢，它速度就非常慢。嗯。对吧？比方说你说宇树的研发成本是不是很高？其实也没有特别夸张，对吧？一年大几千万。但是呢，你说你现在花10个亿，是不是能造出像宇树一样， locomotion 啊，各方面稳定性这么好的一个机器人？不可能。嗯。或者还非常难，它不是个钱的问题，时间问题。所以是因为它碰到了硬件，所以它选机器人也是因为它是个软硬结合，它不只有大脑，还有小脑，还有硬件。所以一旦你提前做，确实在打磨硬件上你有很大优势，比如说你的硬件成本更低。而且稳定性更好，更丝滑，你的臂不会抖，对吧？就有各种各样的一些东西，所以我们当时就计划就是先憋三年。嗯。把整个这个东西确实做到消费级，做到相对 ready 产品化的程度再出来。对，这个先憋三年这个判断是怎么来的呀？因为刚才其实我们有聊到，你说前面都是自己的钱再去跑这个团队，对吧？这其实也不是一笔小钱，但是是出于什么考虑，你要先憋三年？我觉得是这样的，因为家庭机器人这个东西啊。嗯。我觉得有点超前。有点超前。对，就是哪怕你一开始天天出来讲。大家也不一定能理解。嗯。但大家最终一定能理解。所以我觉得这个时候呢，我不用一个人出来改变一个大家对它的看法，对我不如好好把产品做出来。比如说今天家庭机器人，我们的产品拿出来，大家说哇，这个产品化程度很高，觉得哎，产品化这么高，其他公司看了一圈其他都没人这么高，对吧？就我我想做到这种啊哈 moment 就很 surprise 的情况下再出来。当然第二呢？其实我经历过一次创业的起和落，我想我如果再出来融资，我要很确定这个事是能成的。对，否则后面有的收拾。第一我说三年，我想确定这个事确实能做到消费级，而且能产品化，而且这个功能确实像我我出来的时候，其实我的用产品已经有些用户去试用了。反馈不错。嗯。在当时就是决定做机器人的时候，是有纠结过做工业还是做家庭吗？嗯。呃，其实没有。对于我个人来说啊，我会这么看，因为很多图 b 的技术到最后其实也没有什么特别高的壁垒，对吧？那这个时候到最后就杀价格，就最后很难盈利，对吧？比如说同样做清洁机器人，如果你做图 b 和图 c 是不一样的。图 c 的现在的那些公司利润都非常高，但图 b 呢，就相对 struggle 一点，可能卖海外还好，卖国内是非常 struggle 的。图 c 的点是在于，一旦你的产品体验非常好，你这个品牌大家就最认可，因为这个领域你这个品牌做的确实产品质量 ok。大家体验很好，但这个品牌本本身就值一个溢价。这个溢价会让你就一定利润，然后你就会拿这个利润去投入，做出更好的产品，你就会形成正反馈。所以，我一直做 to c 哈，我觉得 to c 这种反馈的方式更适合我啊。然后这个定了做 to c 定了做家庭之后，你们就开干嘛。那个时候你做的第一件事情是什么呀？第一件事情是招人。啊，招什么样的人呢？应该找一些合伙人啊，一些核心的这个工程师啊，还有这个硬件的人也招了不少，嵌入式。什么时候开始真的认真地定义产品的？啊，其实从第一天我们就在一直在寻找产品的这个方向。我记得我在国内和在北美应该都分别发了有五六千份问卷，电话访谈了就跟他聊，你这像你怎么看？你你觉得什么样的功能你会买？啊，到什么样的程度是一个 ready 的状态？我们一直在寻找这个，就说所谓未来不远哈，但到底多远，我们也想确定这个时间。所以什么时候你们比较笃信第一版产品的这种功能的列表或者卖点的这些取舍定下来了？去年底。那不就三个月前？三个月前，因为之前一直都是研发，就是你大概有这个方向，但是你不确定这个方向对不对。有人说这个好，有人说这个不好。他说叠衣服值五百块，他说扫地值两千，他说那个什么，然后你加起来发现还是搞不到那个价，你那个机器成本还无法覆盖对吧？所以你要寻找很多方式，然后为什么是去年底呢？因为去年下半年我们的机器人可以进家庭了。ok。已经到 ready 状态，稳定性啊，各种成本啊，各种放话情况啊，对吧？然后开始进人家家里用。用了以后，人家反馈 ok。去了多少家庭？这些家庭都是什么样的家庭啊？应该是有300个家庭，我在上海。你们送他们进家庭的时候，是带着什么样的这种状态送他们进去的？是他们进去了，比如说安排好了十个功能，一个一个用，还是他们进去的时候也是一张白纸，就是你们期待这个用户看他们怎么用？嗯。啊，你总结得非常好，这是我们几个阶段，就是您说的这几个阶段来的。嗯。一开始进去呢，其实有一些能力我们是比较自信的。一开始的时候啊，就是告诉他你只能干这几个事，对吧？最一开始哈。然后后来呢，逐渐这个随着迭代和优化，后来就告就告诉他，哎，你可以开始自由发挥了。然后到现在呢，我们很多功能反而都是用户用完后他提给我们的。哦。比方说我们一开始之前一开始不会下棋啊，很多用户说他下棋，对吧？很多小孩子下棋，他说他看电脑下棋两小时，对吧？就是眼睛都坏掉了。很多人说啊，你能不能下棋？后来我们就专门强化这个功能，而且我们是夹磁式的，只能下各种各样的棋。对。举个例子哈，还有小孩你都想象不到哈，比如说捉迷藏。捉迷藏。那小孩他他喜欢玩捉迷藏。嗯。然后呢，他确实玩得很开心，每天都玩捉迷藏。我们就发现诶，这个这很有意思啊。嗯。然后就专门把这个东西强化了，做了捉迷藏。对，所以后来就就是叠加越多，其实是一个共创的过程。可不可以介绍一下 f 二就我们今天要上市的这款新产品啊？比如说你面前有一个目标客户，比如说我其实也算目标客户吧。对对对。那你会怎么去安利他？啊，它有两个功能哈，啊，一个是带娃，第二是做些轻家务。ok 带娃和轻家务。对，很重要的需求，每天我们上班很累，回去还要带娃子，它能帮我解决晚上的问题。嗯，那我当然很开心，对吧？他能帮他读绘本，陪他弹钢琴，然后陪他搞小提琴，能带他下棋，还能帮他找乐高，然后还能玩一些其他的，什么捉迷藏啊，跟他一起扔篮球啊，对吧？又有运动，又有非运动，对吧？然后搞完了，睡觉还能陪他讲故事，讲完他就睡，对吧？然后呢，你把灯关了出来，对吧？我们一开始想做养老啊。嗯。说那个很多退休老人，我们说你孤独吗？陪伴你，他说你帮我带娃。就不是陪老人，是帮老人带孙子。嗯，然后当然，嗯，80岁以上老人是另一个群体啊，他可能需要的是护理啊，做菜啊，这种厨房类功能。所以当我们说到带娃的时候，你刚才提到了很多的场景，甚至我听到有一个是这个陪他拉小提琴。嗯。那这是一个什么样的陪法呀？啊，它是听音识曲，你弹得对不对，包括你的指法啊，坐姿啊。嗯。都实时纠正。它可以和你对话的。可以对话，当然。嗯嗯。对。你看到什么年龄段的小孩对机器人的这种互动是最好的？中班以上到小学。嗯。为什么这个阶段是最好的呢？一方面它得有唤醒一个智能音箱的能力，它不全是学习啊，它还玩游戏，对吧？玩萝卜蹲呐。啊，怎么跟机器人玩这种东西是吧？它它有很多的玩法，然后稍微小学一点的，它可以下下棋呀，比较高阶一点的，对吧？还有就是形成一个数据飞轮，因为随着越来越多互动，它是机器人，它有越来越多数据，它会是丰富我们的大脑。我也最近给小孩买了一个机器狗啊，也是能够听它的指令去做一些事情，也能对话。但我发现他们就玩了，可能就是一个小时之后就没兴趣了。那从你们的角度来看，就是已经送到这个家庭里面的咱们的机器人，小孩能和它平均玩多久？去年刚开始进家的时候。在人家家里一般放一两天。嗯。一两天的原因倒不是他不想玩，而是我们机器不稳定，放一两天就要去维护了。一直到像这个月我们在家里都是放一两个月了，一两个月才上门维护。其实一两个月用户每天还是用几个小时的。我这一一直是个 product manager 的，就是东西是要续费的，还有转介绍的。就这两个指标在后面是非常非常重要的。嗯。对吧？50%转介绍率还30%，这决定了你判断这个产品好不好。嗯。对，而不是说我今天卖了多少量，那可能是一波流，但口碑啊什么是非常重要，口碑的一个前置条件就是我的使用时长，我的衰减会怎么样？所以当我们看到我们的用户一两个月后还一直在用，我们就觉得很开心。咱们目前是按月有一个这个订阅的机制吗？就是还是一次买断呀？对，我们现在是按租的方式。嗯。因为我们也不可能在家放很久啊，我们还要拿回来升级啊，什么维护啊。嗯。正式上市之后呢，你打算这两种方式，因为像我们租现在一个月租三四千块钱，然后呢第二种就是你可以比如说买断，对，或者是买断便宜点，但付一些订阅费，如果你解锁一些高阶功能。因为其实我们想的是后面有一些功能可能还是要消耗一些算力的。咱们刚才说到这个，一个是教育，另外一个还有主要的场景是轻家务，那轻家务包括什么？比如说帮你收纳个玩具啊，啊，捡个垃圾呀，啊，这些轻家务对吧？而且它对于鲁班现在要求也不一定特别高，对。重家务呢，最重的家务其实是厨房，因为里面的瓶瓶罐罐非常多，还有各种很脏的油腻的。重家务我认为还有几年时间，所以我们是从轻家务开始。嗯。然后再通过不断地有更多的数据，在家里面有更多数据，它就形成数据飞轮。刚才其实咱们有提到一个点，就是你说这个和用户调研的时候，他会认为这个功能值三百，那个功能值五百。你们是用这种方式在定价吗？就从我能做几件事情，然后它们分别值多少，最后加起来值一个总价？还是你们在用什么别的方式来这个最终决定定价的？我发现卖一个东西是看你对标什么东西。比如说你做这个东西就是为了做家务吗？是为了对标一个阿姨吗？那阿姨其实不贵的，比如说就算在上海这样城市，可能也就七八千块钱一个月。嗯。她能做很多家务，轻重家务都能做，对吧？你只能做轻家务，然后你的机器可能成本两万三万之类的哈。所以后来我们说为什么哎，带娃变成了一个功能了。你做一个商品得是比现在的东西性价比更高，那才是有意义的嘛。对，带娃呢，就比如说你，你现在想找一个帮你带娃的，然后可能还会，不只会讲中文，还会比如说讲点英语啊，还能陪你小孩下个棋啊，那这种阿姨你可能真的很贵很贵。嗯。你可能在上海这样的城市，一个月3万到4万，你可能都找不到，对吧？因为这个就很很难哈。所以如果能做出一款能够达到这些水平的产品，那我觉得是值这个钱的。其实你刚才有提到，你们一开始预设了非常多的功能，然后把它送去家庭，然后这里面有哪些预设的功能给了你们惊喜，或者给了你们这个惊吓？惊喜，其实还是有挺多的，比如说陪娃玩这个事，我们当时调研的时候觉得就没调研出来这个东西。嗯。但是进家后来发现。因为它有个机械臂嘛。嗯。导致它玩的东西就很花里胡哨。嗯。就是娃很想让它陪他玩各种东西，因为娃家里的玩具都没有手，它第一次有手，哎能跟它一起拿东西，它把车小车咻飞出去，然后它捡回来，它咻出去飞回来，那那年龄段低一点的哈。就是哎这个居然还能玩个两小时，然后它第二天可能玩别的哈，别的玩法，所以我们觉得这个是很 surprise 所以才这才真正让我们关注到。然后你说惊吓呢，也有，比如说家里有狗的，有猫的，然后呢，它进去以后呢，发现有一户，他家的狗它就一晚上都睡不好觉，然后它主人就说，哎呀算了，它的狗连觉都睡不好，那这不行，后来我们才专门去研发。怎么搞狗？嗯。啊，所以后来发现诶，搞狗这个事好像也是个挺有意思的事哈，就开始训练，你要喂狗粮。嗯。对吧？猫呢，有点像鸡毛掸子那种，陪它玩，跟它搞个一两个小时，那个熟悉就不怕你了。嗯。后来发现这个东西也挺有意思的，动物也有托班，一个月也要几千块。对，就说其实这个世界上的商品有两种嘛，一种是产品，一种是服务。对。啊，其实家庭机器人看上去它是一个产品，但其实它背后卖的是服务。没错。嗯。没错，因为服务这个东西很贵，然后呢也很难标准化。嗯。但我觉得通过机器的方式可以用从物理 ai 的方式让很多东西标准化。所以其实我们肯定是希望家庭机器人进家庭之后能做的事情越多越泛化越好。但这里就会有一个问题是，大家会认为这个人形机器人就双足，比起轮式，它可能可以适应更多的家庭的空间。啊，但是显然咱们选的应该是轮式，可以讲一下这背后你们的这个。ok思考吗？我觉得轮式和机器人，哎，和双足各有优劣。嗯。对，也不敢一概而论哈。啊，但轮式的优势呢，是在室内场景它性价比确实非常高，这个性价比包括安全性、稳定性。嗯。对吧？因为你说双足嘛，你真的拿到家里，我们也买过哈。包括买个狗哈，这个其实确实不太适合在家里，为什么呢？你把它提起来它会飞车，它的脚会会开始乱乱飞，对吧？一旦不稳定，所以这个还是比较危险的。所以呢，我觉得室内场里面轮它很稳，安全度也很高，对吧？然后除了你说欧美家庭别墅哈，那另外说，像中国大部分家庭平层，其实轮式它已经非常稳定能处理很多活了，而且它不需要考虑这个稳定性问题，对吧？它这本身就很稳定，你只要配重做好，底盘足够重，对吧？它就，对吧？包括它的电池也比较大，因为在下面，所以它的续航能力比较强。其实从我们从一开始的底层结构和架构就是这样的。就在我们录播客的这一两个月哈，就是这个世界模型突然就是铺天盖地而来。然后我们也听说这个有世界模型的研究员拿到1000万的高薪，啊，有非常多这个做世界模型的创业公司在资本市场很受追捧。就你怎么看世界模型？世界模型确实给了至少至少我很多 surprise 因为它在 zero shot 方面就大白话说哈，从来没见过东西，它能够有个百分之几十的鲁棒性，就这个确实很 surprise 的，因为 v i 之前是非常难做到这个事的。所以我觉得从这个角度讲，它是有一定优势的。当然世界模型的定义呢，有很多很多很多啊，我是以这个比如英伟达 dream zero 为例来讲的世界模型哈。所以呢，我觉得从底层方式上讲，本来像我们这种做机器人的，做家庭机器人的，泛化性是非常重要的。嗯。对吧？zero shot总会遇到，corner case 非常多。所以从我们这个场景的方式来说，那它一定是会比 VLA 更具前瞻性。这两个月我们才引入了很多世界模型的人。对，当然世界模型的人确实之前在国内做的不是很多，但确实找到这个人才很重要。当然他也不一定是个终点，因为他毕竟在 zero shot 方面，鲁棒性也不是说百分之一百，那还是有相当的路要走。所以我觉得至少在现阶段呢，两条路并行是很多公司的选择。嗯。包括 vla 也还是有很多的迭代的，所以也不能直接否掉。但我只是说从基本的方式理解上来说，cm 模型是有一定推理能力的，vla是没有的。还有推理这个事，它就变成说它能够预测一个东西的轨迹，所以它这个能力是非常强的，而且它的训练方式呢也不太一样。比如说它灌注很多的视频，对吧？它更轻量了。包括比如说它只需要一个头上戴个摄像头，手部直接操作就可以了，没有那么重，对吧？所以它确实有一些优势，但是现在还很难说，因为它鲁棒性也没有达到说。百分之一百的这种情况，对吧？很多还是在论文阶段。对，所以只能说它从方式上是更先进的。咱们其实有非常多的选择是自研，对不对？我不知道是不是方便分享一下，就你们有哪些选择了自研，就是可能在不同的公司，大家在这里有一些不同的选择的时候，你们做了哪些关键的自研选择？从2年开始呢，一开始做了很多从硬件开始做自研。嗯。对，然后后来他就逐渐变变成全栈做自研了。这个你从电机到扭距关节到整个臂啊爪啊整机啊。就这些都是自研的，所以这也是为什么之前花了非常长时间。然后一旦自研这个硬件呢，你那个算法也得自研，因为你要跟它打通。嗯。对吧？所以呢，而且我们自研的还是就是一定要把成本干到很低，消费级的。所以这个很多时候你在市场找不到，就这个东西它没有这么便宜的东西，所以你不得不自己搞。甚至比如说这个关节里面这个孔径，你要足够大能走更多的线，市场上没有，对吧？所以你只能自己定义，把这个东西给做出来。自研关节，我记得之前我们交流的时候，你说你们的成本就是一千块左右，但如果是三方采购，可能要八千平均，就是怎么能够做到那么便宜呢？别人这个第三方做，他其实专业做这个，为什么都做不过你们？啊。比如说我们想要中空大孔径的，这确实没有，对吧？你让人家做，而且那必然就比较贵。还有第二个更重要的事是，很多做这种关节都是工业级的，我们在家庭机器人砍掉了非常多参数。比如说你看整个臂，我重复定位精度就这么多就行了，我的负载就这么多就行了。并不是说我们的东西需要又要适配工厂，搬很重的物，又要去便利店拿一些各种形式的东西，我们全砍了，砍到就是极致家庭。够用，ok，ready。所以当然你的成本会更便宜，因为你第一个进家庭，你知道参数到什么位置为止就可以，所以每个零部件都按这个来。所以全电路的自研给你们还是带来了很多的好处。啊，除了刚才提到的，还有其他的好处吗？啊，最大好处是你每个地方的参数都拿得到，比如说你就电流环，对吧？你可以知道哎，这个每个关节实际的这个情况怎么样？实际的量大小，很多东西你如果是第三方，他也不会给你开放很多接口，你也无法调到你想的数据，对吧？但这可以调到后，你就可以做很多的这个优化算法。对吧？比如说为什么消费级的 b 有的人会做到不抖，因为它参数拿了很多，它每个接口它都拿到很多参数，它可以调得最优。嗯，全链路自研有坑吗？你认为？啊，全链路自研当然也有坑，你要花非常多的时间，然后有些地方你是自研不出来的。嗯。对，比如说减速器，确实这个自研难度非常大，包括深度相机对吧？但你你不可能这些也全部自研。确实，那在咱们目前选择自研的这些组件里面，有哪一个是最难的呀？比如说驱动器在一个巴掌大的地方，你要把它集成很多高密度的东西，对吧？包括它这里面的温控怎么做，其实这一块也是我们的硬件团队花了非常长时间去调优的。嗯，稳定性，对吧？但这个还是能做的，所以最后还自研出来。然后减速器确实一开始也是尝试过，但后来比如说孔隙太大啊，什么这种就是很多工艺问题啊，确实不好做，所以这个就放弃了。诶，我记得咱们的这个用的不是五个手指的灵巧手，对不对？对，我们是用二爪。这是不是其实也是一个非常重要的关键选择呀？啊，对，主要是现在灵巧手呢，五指呢，你现在全世界你找不到一个能够用两个月以上的灵巧手，对吧？但我觉得这个东西最终肯定是能克服的，但是它确实是个工艺问题。它每个关节都很小嘛。嗯。所以如果你天天受冲击的话，它确实比这个二爪这个这么大的一个关节确实容易坏。我们其实预留了接口的，就比如你今天 d 项成熟也是可以很快换上去的。嗯。但是你说让我们去搞领导这个事，那我觉得这个时间确实还是相对比较长，很多公司专门在做这一块啊，所以我们也就不去参与这种了。咱们都知道这个做具身，它背后其实也是有小脑有大脑的吧，这里面数据都非常的重要，尤其咱们也在做世界模型，那数据就变得更加重要。我好奇的是，我不知道能分享多少啊，就是你们的数据是怎么来的？就目前比如再往前看啊，你会觉得这个数据的差异是不同的厂商拉开这种竞争优势的很重要的这个一个关键点吗？嗯。数据肯定是很重要的一个事，对吧？尤其是这几个月出来很多只做数据的公司，包括你看看英伟达啊，包括国内的一些大厂都在买数据，对吧？所以当然数据很重要，大脑竞争很激烈啊，但是呢，它抄起来也很快。就是如果你都是在大脑团队，有一个人做了一个比较好的一个模式哈，这个另一家公司弄出来呢，可能也就一两个月，所以这个东西跟数据比起来，它其实更快。嗯。但是呢，数据这个东西啊，它就。比较慢了。啊，因为机器人的数据确实历史上是非常少的，包括英伟达的 gem zero 你看它，我记得就是十二还是十十几个 b 对吧？其实很小，说明它的数据量其实确实很少，包括一些家庭数据都很少，这个采起来确实比较困难。嗯。我觉得这个确实会最终决定一个机器人公司，就是说别同样叠一件衣服，我叠得比你好，因为我用家庭数据比你多。嗯。所以呢，为什么要到家庭里面去？因为有真实家庭数据后，你才能迭代飞轮，你才能做越越好。对，所以我觉得数据包括数据管道的搭建。这些东西最后会成为决胜非常重要的关键。那你会预感，比如说接下来一两年，因为大家在疯狂的搞数据嘛。对。就是这一两年会是，就是某种决胜之年的感觉。数据我其实觉得分两种。嗯。甚至分三种。第一种是正儿八经的数据，比如说我就叠个衣服，现在很多数据工厂就是就叠衣服嘛。但是呢，数据还有第二种是 corner case 就叠这个衣服的时候，这条桌缺了一个腿，或者一个腿不稳，那我叠衣服的时候老老窜对吧？对。这种理论上你不会在工厂里面搭一个这么，因为这种情况那就千变万化了，这个实在是多得不得了对吧？嗯。就 corner case。这种实际还得在家里面，你才能够真正的学到。所以我才觉得这个为什么实际的场景是非常重要的。然后还有第三种数据，也是现在很多人忽略掉的。与活物互动的数据，与人互动，与动物互动。你在工厂里面，你会跟一个小孩互动吗？你不会去训跟小孩互动吧？嗯。对吧？但这个其实很重要，你看我们是在家里面，80%场景就是跟人在互动啊。那你跟不同年龄的人，跟不同种族的人，不同性别的人，方式有有差异，对吧？而且这个千变万化，这怎么去采这些数据呢？对吧？所以你更要。一定要拿到真实的情况，你才能够 cover 到这些，否则你的数据就只是就是这个世界百分一百，你你只拿到其中的百分之一。因为咱们在做的事情，我理解啊，和 sunday 在美国他们做的事情还是有一点相似的。然后 sunday 发布的时候，我自己是觉得挺震撼的。我不知道你们看到那个产品，大概几个月前发的时候，有带给你们哪些启发？我们觉得挺有意思的哈，有一些，其实我 surprise 的是一个在美国做的公司，居然还做硬件哈，这个确实是 surprise。而且我觉得它有些巧思哈，包括比如说相机位置的设置啊，对吧？包括比如说对外形的设计的一些思考啊，包括比如说一种乌密的素材方式啊。嗯。我觉得有一些地方还是有有一些巧思的。当然因为产品没拍卖哈，这个也很难实际去评价，但是从这些方面去看，包括他们一些 act 的一些方案啊，当然很没有开源，你很难去评价哈，但是我觉得是确实加入很多自己的思考的。嗯。因为刚才咱们在聊这个数据捕捉嘛，对吧？数据采集，其实 sunday 做了一个 skill capture glove 对吧？就技能捕捉手套。是是是。然后你们会有类似的这样的。所以我们其实为什么要进家庭呢？我觉得最好的方式是能收集到最真实的 corner case 就最真实的，它不是摆出来的。所以这是为什么我我们很想把机器人先弄到家里去，哪怕先租到家庭里面去。那你会采取一个非常激进的低价策略吗？比如说就是赔本卖，主要我现在就是要铺开进到尽可能多的家庭，因为这是构建未来的，因为数据意味着护城河，对吧？构建未来的护城河的一个办法。看市场的变化情况，对，但早期可能贴着本卖。嗯。对。同时呢，就比如说别人采数可能要花很多钱，但我们至少是贴着本过去的。对，使得这个飞轮转起来。你预测会有人就是搞大补贴吗？因为今天资本市场那么的热，好像大家补贴得起了。对。你预感会有人这么干吗？我从两个方面来讲哈。第一呢，首先你得把它还不是个纯大脑的事，ok，对吧？你要权杖做到消费级，我觉得首先大家都达到这个水平的情况下，才有可能到达补贴，但这个确实需要时间。嗯。第二呢？啊，当然补贴这个事啊，也是有一定可能性。如果有很多人做到我们这个程度的话，但我觉得可能还要花很相当一段时间到我们的程度，对吧？但就目前现在这个市场热度，我还不认为达到那个程度，因为我毕竟经历互联网。互联网那个时代的这个融资金额确实可能比现在的这哪怕机器人的领域的融资金额可能还要大一个汇率。都是以美金计价。嗯。现在都是以人民币计价。嗯。所以呢，这个比如说以前融10个亿美金，现在可能融10个亿人民币。你们最多的的时候融了多少？我们当时融不算最多的，比如说一轮融个几亿美金吧。嗯。但当时其实在线教育有很多人一轮融个十亿美金，二十亿美金。嗯。就一轮哈。所以我才说这个疯狂状态还没到那个，但我觉得如果机器人一旦 ready 就非常 ready 很多人看到我们这个竞价啊，就觉得不错，那我觉得倒是有这个可能。对，所以你现在怎么看当下的这个融资的热度？啊，当下的融资热度分两个角度讲。嗯。首先很多人说有泡沫，但我觉得肯定是有一定泡沫。嗯。因为没有泡沫呢，一个行业很难起来，那肯定是因为泡沫超前于这个行业的发展。那这个行业才有更多人才的涌入，涌入才有可能把它怼出来。然后呢，因为我我毕竟创业过周期的人哈，就有这个感受，就是说其实很多行业啊，它都是要创业周期的。这泡沫呢，是在每个周期的上面，对吧？但最终会掉下去。但是机器人这个行业呢，因为你看未来二十年到通用机器人，就你可以看到一个确实存在的场景什么的，就是到时候世界上所有的公司都是机器人公司。一个便利店老板是个人，下面很多都是机器人，就每个公司都必须是机器人公司，不是机器人公司你就不行了。这种未来是可预见的未来，只不过时间问题。它中间的泡沫呢，它是个一上一下，对吧？比如今天这个泡沫很大，啪，这个刺破了掉下来，但是它一定是个曲折向上的。今天如果你说从融资和资本上，我觉得它是在一个周期，但是它也不是最终。嗯。所以我核心是要穿越周期，对。那在你看来，今天这些融到那么多钱的机器人公司，哪些是更有可能穿越周期活下来的？它身上需要具备哪些要素？对，我觉得穿越周期这个事还不是今天融个20个亿就解决的问题啊。就你必须长期来说 sustainable 的，你有自己的一个商业模式，否则的话，一年亏几十个亿很简单。再说的家庭机器人，你觉得从今天到咱们真的进入千家万户，这个中间最大的障碍有哪些啊？你指的是所有人都用，对吧？那个时候你要切到所有人的需求，一定是个非常通用的机器人，对吧？但是它这个过程会有一个迭代的过程，因为数据的问题，因为你如果没有拿到足够多的数据，你又无法更通用，你又无法升级自我，对吧？所以呢，一开始呢，我觉得就是谁能把机器人放，到家里面去，而且大家喜欢它，会一直使用它。嗯。让它这个飞轮转起来。我觉得这是最难的第一步啊。嗯。这是最难的第一步，因为一旦飞轮能够转起来，后面的很多都是等待时间的发展，模型的调优。嗯。数据的累积。对，但核心是第一个飞轮必须转起来。但它要到什么样的这种所谓的阈值，它才转起来了呢？比如说你放1000台进去，它算转起来吗？还是放10万台，放100万台才叫转起来？对，这里面也取决几个因素哈，包括模型的升级。嗯。模型本身需要多少数据，或者本身需要多少高质量数据，或者 dirty 的数据能不能用。所以我觉得第一次模型的升级，包括对数据讲要求，数据采集方式的变化，是不是更友好？包括错误的数据，如果你去纠正它，是不是也算一个好的，好的数据。觉得消费者对它现在有一些顾虑需要打除吗？比如说大家会觉得有个机器人在家里很不安全啊。其实我觉得中国人对于新鲜事物的接受度还是挺高的，相对来说，我都相对欧美人来说，比如说你看我们之前每次在公园下棋，那都是很多老人围了一里三层外三层的，然后每次都是最后被保安赶走了。哦，你们有把机器人送去公园下棋。有啊，很多，有时候我们放到楼下，哇，就马上围过来好多老人。如果我买一台机器人回家。我可以带它出门遛弯吗？如果没有坎的话是可以的，但如果有坎那是不太行。就理论上只要是有残疾人的这样的通道就可以，对不对？对对对对。嗯，这个挺有意思的，因为现在没有什么法规的限制，对吧？说我不能带机器人出门。啊，对你，你只要不要带出门，和围上太多人就可以了。okok 哎，因为咱们在准备这一期播客之前，其实我也和你的这个联合创始人路易斯，包括这个投资人就真格基金的缇娜都有交流过啊，都有问过他们就是有什么建议啊，这一期内容要怎么做。然后，路易斯其实提到一个很有趣的点，就他认为你经历了双减，打个引号，就是有点像灭顶之灾之后。这次创业的风格彻底变了，因为路易斯和你一起经历了这所有的创业的旅程吧，你自己觉得你变了吗？我觉得可能在朝着一个本来就应该去的方向变化吧。那原来没有在朝那个方向去吗？原来也有，但我可能缺了某个东西，但可能经历的这些事让我把那缺的东西补上去，变得更加完整了。那是什么东西呢？那个能用语言把它描述出来吗？两个东西哈。嗯。第一个是关于坚持这个东西呢，我觉得我现在对一些方向就是一开始会看得更久，但是一旦做会更加坚持。嗯。我觉得哈。然后呢，第二个事呢，就是我觉得我对于起伏这件事会从一个更高的方向去看。这是什么意思呢？是说起伏不太会影响到你了？我有时候会从第三者的角度去看待这件事事情。ok。啊，不是把自己放在这件事情里面去看。这要怎么做到？以前的经历确实遇到一个事就很着急。嗯。就非常着急，很容易焦虑哈，就特别容易焦虑，因为我我这个人本来就很容易焦虑。但是呢，后来经历了很多，就就就更大的风浪以后啊，很多事情呢，你只要看起来呢，哎，虽然很难，但是呢，你如果站在未来往回头看，你会发现这件事其实就这么回事，对吧？但是你如果老站在现在往后面看呢，你老觉得这个事很大，今天就要过不去了。我现在会从另外一个角度去看这件事，这样可以看得更完整，而且看得更持久，也看得更清楚。就你会把自己放到未来，再来看现在，就会发现很多时候是轻舟已过万重山的感觉。没错。嗯。那这种能力或者这样的这个心态和双减的那个经历是有关的吗？嗯，也有一定关系。因为有些时候有人会讲说这个一个就是企业家就焦虑，其实也是一种品质。是。吧，就是他完美主义，或叫他就一定要这个去纠正一些组织里面或者产品上面的问题和 bug 但是如果你变得那么的这个能够和这些问题和解。对。你会担心这是也是一个问题吗？啊，是这样的，我以前做在线教育的时候啊，确实有些在线教育公公司做得比我们大，比我们好。后来我就知道有些创始人，他确实比我淡定。因为我焦虑的时候，我的策略会变得短视。嗯。我会选择当下的最优解，而不会选择两年后的最优解。所以我可能赢在了这个月，但是我输在了两年。但现在不是了，我觉得很多时候我会跳出来，就是说，ok，焦虑它是一件事，那这件事有没有解决方案？有，这么做，那就这么去做吧。有方案以后就不要焦虑了，员工就很怕你焦虑，高管很怕你焦虑，老板今天上了个商学院回来，马上战略发生变化。听完这节课，很焦虑，说我们要做人才变革，马上引住几个人，然后开始大刀阔斧，那人家很害怕。你能想到一个具体的例子，就是比如说一个在焦虑时候做的决策，他可能在当下这个月让你赢了，但是两年之后输了。我记得我们当时是在线一对一，在这个领域确实做得非常牛啊，占据了百分之七十的 market share。嗯。就后来都远超第二名，拉了非常大一截。嗯。后来呢，有个新的形态出来，叫在线大班课。嗯。其实呢，有些人会说，在大帮客是更终局的模式，因为它面对更多人，它的这个毛利更高，它理论上更好，对吧？但是呢，我也想做，因为我觉得这确实是一个更好的模式，就很多股东就会开始说了。这个一堆这个仗还没打完。嗯。你要去打大帮客的仗，对吧？那大家也都不是吃素的。嗯。就只干一件事，对吧？你干这个干那个，那你干他的时候会不会你被第二名超了呀？战斗还没结束呢，小组赛还没结束呢，对吧？那有些股东又说，那你要去干那个，那个大十倍，对吧？公司市值一下子能翻多少，对吧？非常不同的意见。非常不同意见，那你就很纠结，但这个时候你会双线作战，你最后你发现你那个事肯定做不好，因为别人干那个事，他专心一意就干那个事，看清楚了，干那个事就干那个事。嗯。你不是这样的，对吧？所以虽然你赢得了最后赢得 ed 这场战，但你输了一个更大的市场。嗯，有意思。如果你今天要对那些也经历过创业失败，或者经历过类似双减这样打击的创业者们说一句话，你会能想到有这样的一句话说给大家吗？对于经历过一些挫折的人啊。嗯。或者的创业者。我觉得就你遇到的这个挫折哈，或者遇到的一个巨大的这个变故，往往只是逼迫你去做一件，其实你真正要做的事情。我觉得这个人生哈，因为我们不可能走在两条船上，所以你永远不知道哪个是最好的选择。像我们只能相信我们选择这个一定是最好的，哪怕经过挫折，他是帮我们做选择。我们必须找到自洽。嗯。我们只有自己找自洽，我们才能活得更好。就有可能失败，其实是一种外在的力量在帮你做选择，帮你排除一些可能性。对。哇，我没想到是这样的一个感觉很有哲学意味的一个答案。前两年确实也是想了很多，对。嗯。你后悔过去十几年这个创业里面有哪些没做的事吗？有那么就是一想到后悔这个词就会冒出来的一件事或两件事吗？我这个人其实很少后悔哈。嗯。比如说有些人会说早知道怎么样怎么样，对吧？但是我我是。从来不说这话的人，几乎哈，不说绝对，几乎。因为我觉得其实人生没有第二种选择啊。嗯。就算你后悔做一件事，你怎么知道它里面没有更多的后悔呢？对吧？所以我一直觉得我们还是要相信自己做的选择一定是最恰当的。我觉得更重要的是你找自己的自洽。嗯。我的选择跟我的过往，跟我即将要去的路，我个人觉得都是匹配的，无论我现在周遭如何。再低落，再低迷，再惨再好，任何时候我觉得都要首先要向上看，所以有人做得那么好，对吧？你的企业虽然比如说一百亿，但是还有一千亿的，对吧？你看完你会谦虚，觉得我其实我是个 nobody 但同时你也要向下看，啊，我也不是一无是处，人就是要活在一个自洽里面，然后这样你才能活得久，对啊，然后活得好，活得好，无论你做企业还是工作。你才能够就真正地做好，因为人最后还是要活得久嘛。哈哈哈。嗯，这就是像你讲的，就可能现在感觉更加的这种平静、淡定，因此在做一些战略的时候，也可能会做出更长久的、更长期健康的战略。是的。这次做未来不远和之前做掌门一对一，感觉像两个完全不一样的人了。嗯。所以创业对你的意义是不是也有了非常大的变化？对。这个我觉得创业本来是一种修行哈。当然很多东西都是修行，工作也是修行，对吧？你送外卖也是一种修行，其实我觉得很多东西都修行，那修行的东西不一样。当然创业这个事呢，从第一次选择这条路的时候，我就知道这肯定是与众不同的。嗯。而且他的修行的东西可能也不太一样。我研究生的时候上的是那个上海高金，非常好的一个国内可能 topone 的商学院，因为当时招的都是清华北大、复旦交大这种学院的第一名才能去。但是呢，在那学院念了一年后我就走了，我就出来创业了。但是也很多人极度费解，而且也当时拿到了比较好的嗯，当年的麦肯锡哈，对吧？居然还不去去创业，对吧？但我当时选择了，我知道这是不归路，肯定是不归路，而且肯定有很多问题，很多麻烦，很多失败，我也知道创业成功率就百分零点一。对吧？但是既然选择了前方，就就只顾风雨兼程哈。我觉得现在说如果是创业的人哈，就都要有这个准备，你本来就是跟别人不太一样。所以你觉得这一次和上一次最大的变化，如果说一个点的话，你能想到是什么吗？最大的变化，我觉得看东西看得更周全和更长远吧。比如说你说资本泡沫哈，我觉得有一部分吧，资本其实是有点炒股心态。嗯。对，为什么我这么说呢？哪里火我肯定要凑一下，然后弄一下，然后快进快退，对吧？还是这样的，但是我觉得。最后大家也还是会回到更长期的心态去做事情。对，但我也相信这是最健康的。那如果比如说我们再往长期看哈，就是你要给十年之后的自己。就是比如说留一个言或者许一个愿，你会希望那是一句什么样的？嗯。心愿或者祝福或者寄语或者问题。可能会对十年之后的我说，十年前的我呢，觉得未来不远。那十年后的那个时候呢，可能我原来所认为的那个未来不远的未来已经实现了。但是呢，我希望哈，希望十年后的我还能继续。相信还有更美好的，就是未来不远。嗯，就永远有美好的未来在不远处。对，给人以期待。嗯，赞。好的，今天非常谢谢张翼。好。嗯，聊得很开心，对。然后也希望这个张翼现在在创造的，他认为不远的未来早一点成为我们每个人都能感受到的一个真实的未来，有更多的这个机器人进入我们的家庭，啊，让我们过得更快乐，过得更轻松。啊，也期待你再来十字路口，谢谢。好，谢谢谢谢，好，郭姐。嗯，拜拜。拜。", "duration_seconds": 2861.64, "segments": [ { "index": 0, "text": "欢迎收听十字路口，我们关注新一代 AI 技术浪潮带来的行业新变化和创业新机会。", "start": 2.53, "end": 8.89, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 1, "text": "十字路口是乔布斯对苹果公司的一个比喻，形容他站在科技与人文的十字路口，伟大的产品往往诞生在这里。", "start": 9.65, "end": 18.21, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 2, "text": "我们长期观察 AI 创业，如果你正在做一件让你自己感到兴奋的事情，哪怕它还只是一个想法，我们都很愿意听你聊一聊。", "start": 18.45, "end": 27.05, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 3, "text": "我会认真看每一条留言。", "start": 27.17, "end": 29.09, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 4, "text": "嗨，我是 Koji，那本周十字路口的嘉宾呢，是张翼。", "start": 31.97, "end": 35.17, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 5, "text": "那张翼呢，曾经是一个30亿美金的市值的上市公司，掌门1对1的创始人。", "start": 35.57, "end": 41.77, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 6, "text": "当然他们也这个经历了双减的一夜归零的这样的故事。", "start": 41.89, "end": 46.05, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 7, "text": "那四年前呢，张翼重新创业，他反而选择了一个我认为更慢也更难的赛道，是家庭的通用机器人。", "start": 46.58, "end": 53.86, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 8, "text": "这家公司的名字叫做未来不远，最近刚完成了数亿规模的融资，也在今天啊，就我们播客发的这一天，他们推出了一款颜值很高的家庭机器人新品啊，F二。", "start": 54.3, "end": 67.1, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 9, "text": "你好，张翼，欢迎来到十字路口。", "start": 67.34, "end": 69.06, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 10, "text": "谢谢，你好，高迪。", "start": 69.38, "end": 70.42, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 11, "text": "好，那我们还是从快问快答开始哈。", "start": 70.7, "end": 73.54, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 12, "text": "请问张翼你的年龄？", "start": 73.54, "end": 74.62, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 13, "text": "三十六。", "start": 74.9, "end": 75.54, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 14, "text": "毕业的院校？", "start": 75.7, "end": 76.42, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 15, "text": "上海交大。", "start": 76.7, "end": 77.38, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 16, "text": "mbti 和星座。", "start": 77.78, "end": 78.78, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 17, "text": "intj 摩羯。", "start": 79.38, "end": 80.66, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 18, "text": "一句话介绍一下未来不远这家公司和 f 二这款产品。", "start": 80.94, "end": 84.5, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 19, "text": "未来不远是一家一直专注于做家庭通用机器人的公司。", "start": 84.87, "end": 90.83, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 20, "text": "这 f 二产品呢，比我们之前的 f 一产品呢，颜值更高，功能更强大，而且也是最终会交付到客户手里的机器人的形态。", "start": 91.19, "end": 99.47, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 21, "text": "咱们目前融资的情况方便讲吗？", "start": 99.75, "end": 101.71, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 22, "text": "我们前后一共融了三轮，原来是我团队自己投钱哈，然后一直到其实我们真正出来市场化融资是到去年底，我们非常确定我们这个产品能推向市场，能开始给大家试用，而且试用后很受欢迎。", "start": 102.27, "end": 117.27, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 23, "text": "然后我们才正式出来融资，然后就从去年底到现在几个月吧。", "start": 117.31, "end": 121.11, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 24, "text": "就快速的融了两轮。", "start": 121.33, "end": 122.97, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 25, "text": "然后目前咱们的产品还没有开售，对吧？", "start": 123.33, "end": 126.33, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 26, "text": "啊，我们目前是开租，在上海一些家庭里面就是可以预约开租啊，排队。", "start": 127.01, "end": 131.89, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 27, "text": "团队的规模呢？", "start": 132.17, "end": 133.13, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 28, "text": "主要是工程师哈，大概100人左右。", "start": 133.29, "end": 135.25, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 29, "text": "创业前做过什么？", "start": 135.49, "end": 136.57, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 30, "text": "创业前在创业，哈哈哈。", "start": 136.89, "end": 138.85, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 31, "text": "然后在那个创业前在学校的时候，其实也在创业，嗯，就在边读书的时候边创业，对。", "start": 139.17, "end": 145.73, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 32, "text": "然后我们今天肯定是要重点聊未来不远啊，要聊这个家庭通用的机器人，但是在那个之前还是想，就是我自己特别好奇啊，我身边其实蛮多朋友都经历了双减的。", "start": 146.13, "end": 156.37, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 33, "text": "而我觉得张翼，可能你是经历双减的这些人里面，因为你当时公司已经上市了，然后30亿美金的市值，但是双减来的那一刻，你在哪里看到这个新闻的？", "start": 156.72, "end": 168.08, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 34, "text": "当时我带着团队去一个做出海做得非常好的公司，当时在车上，应该是一些投资人吧，给我发了一个消息说啊，这个这个这个这个文件怎么这样？", "start": 168.12, "end": 177.68, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 35, "text": "这是，Is it real？", "start": 177.8, "end": 179.48, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 36, "text": "我看到这个文件，那一刻我觉得是一片空白的，就觉得说，是真的吗？", "start": 180.4, "end": 184.64, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 37, "text": "就难以置信。", "start": 185.6, "end": 187.56, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 38, "text": "什么时候你发现这是真的？", "start": 187.68, "end": 189.2, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 39, "text": "其实确定它是真的。", "start": 189.6, "end": 190.84, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 40, "text": "应该花了有半个月。", "start": 192.15, "end": 193.03, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 41, "text": "这么久？", "start": 193.95, "end": 194.51, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 42, "text": "对，我们觉得说这是会不会是个阶段性的事，所以我们减掉了一点人，然后就是看情况边走。", "start": 194.83, "end": 201.23, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 43, "text": "但是半个月后，我记得我们以前有几个核心的投资人就跟我说，他说这个事是 real 的，你就公司那年我们做了100个亿，你就想100亿的公司，它的养这么多员工，它的月支出是多少？", "start": 201.27, "end": 215.39, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 44, "text": "其实非常高的。", "start": 215.75, "end": 216.71, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 45, "text": "对，所以一旦没有收入，你如果维持这么高的收入，你直接就整个公司就爆了。", "start": 217.03, "end": 221.11, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 46, "text": "所以当时很多投资人说你你你不能再拖了，再拖就就，我今天就不会坐在这里了。", "start": 221.23, "end": 225.91, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 47, "text": "对，所以后来确实很 serious 所以，后来剩下两个半月，我们确实没办法减到1000人以内。", "start": 226.87, "end": 233.03, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 48, "text": "哇塞！", "start": 233.51, "end": 233.87, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 49, "text": "对。", "start": 234.19, "end": 234.47, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 50, "text": "就在你非常确定它是真的之后，开的第一个会是什么会啊？", "start": 234.75, "end": 239.63, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 51, "text": "我们内部核心开了一个会，当然我其实已经那段最难受的记忆，我已经有点泛白了哈，真的从9万多人减到剩1000人以内的时候，那段我确实记忆有点泛白了，但是我我我记得当时就其实这个体量的减员是非常难受的。", "start": 239.87, "end": 255.43, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 52, "text": "但对我来说哈，首先第一难受的是你很多兄弟嘛。", "start": 255.43, "end": 257.75, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 53, "text": "然后 say goodbye 然后我还印象深刻，有些 hr 我们原来在全国五十几个城市都有分公司。", "start": 258.089, "end": 262.809, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 54, "text": "嗯。", "start": 263.049, "end": 263.209, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 55, "text": "然后都都很大，然后他把所有人就是 say goodbye 后，自己关灯出来，就是这样，所以很难受。", "start": 263.329, "end": 268.449, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 56, "text": "所以这个体量的减人已经不是这种正常的减法了，就是一个个会开下去。", "start": 268.849, "end": 273.089, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 57, "text": "从从我这个跟核心管理层讲完这个会，然后他们再一层层去向下去开会。", "start": 274.049, "end": 278.969, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 58, "text": "那个会是一个什么样的气氛？", "start": 279.329, "end": 281.329, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 59, "text": "它就是非常的这个，肃穆吗？", "start": 281.729, "end": 284.529, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 60, "text": "还是和想象中不完全一样？", "start": 284.609, "end": 286.529, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 61, "text": "说实话，我自己的会我已经完全空白了。", "start": 286.929, "end": 289.849, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 62, "text": "我这，后脑勺有一撮白头发。", "start": 289.849, "end": 291.769, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 63, "text": "嗯。", "start": 291.849, "end": 292.049, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 64, "text": "就那个时候出来的。", "start": 292.169, "end": 293.129, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 65, "text": "哦。", "start": 293.249, "end": 293.569, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 66, "text": "然后，但是其他人的会，因为他们后来不断的口述给我，所以我是记得非常深刻的。", "start": 294.89, "end": 299.37, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 67, "text": "我记得他们有很多会是一场会就几百个人，然后他一场场开下去的，因为否则大家不理解为什么要这么做，然后几百个人，然后现场就几个核心高管可能会分别出来讲这个事。", "start": 299.61, "end": 311.05, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 68, "text": "然后有时候讲着讲着，有人现场就哭出来了。", "start": 311.49, "end": 313.37, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 69, "text": "所以经历了双减的人，多多少少都会说对自己后面的人生选择都会产生非常大的影响。", "start": 313.49, "end": 320.49, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 70, "text": "那你觉得这一段有对你再后来选择做未来不远，就做机器人有带来哪些影响吗？", "start": 320.93, "end": 327.81, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 71, "text": "其实只要人生有巨大的波折，嗯。", "start": 327.89, "end": 330.45, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 72, "text": "都会有很多的思考。", "start": 330.49, "end": 331.61, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 73, "text": "无论是双节，还是其他人所经历的其他事情，只要有巨大的起伏，都会思考。", "start": 332.77, "end": 338.33, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 74, "text": "比如说人生的意义是什么？", "start": 338.61, "end": 339.85, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 75, "text": "对吧？", "start": 340.09, "end": 340.45, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 76, "text": "我们到底是为什么而奋斗？", "start": 340.61, "end": 342.01, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 77, "text": "我们应该何去何从？", "start": 342.29, "end": 343.69, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 78, "text": "什么对我们是最重要的？", "start": 343.73, "end": 344.85, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 79, "text": "但是如果你人生一直很顺利的时候，可能你就没时间，你也不会去思考这些事。", "start": 345.01, "end": 348.85, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 80, "text": "对。", "start": 349.09, "end": 349.29, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 81, "text": "所以呢，我觉得当然思考这事肯定是对自己的选择，因为毕竟你要花很长的去去消化这些事情，对吧？", "start": 349.77, "end": 357.01, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 82, "text": "像我做机器人，中间也是隔了一年多嘛，其实这一年多也确实做了非常多的思考。", "start": 357.01, "end": 362.21, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 83, "text": "啊，所以最后才做了一个决定。", "start": 362.53, "end": 363.89, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 84, "text": "嗯，对。", "start": 364.05, "end": 364.61, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 85, "text": "所以那一年是什么样的思考，让你最后指向了要去做机器人？", "start": 364.77, "end": 368.33, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 86, "text": "当时其实我有一段时间 get lost 然后一段时间很伤心，然后然后也不用去公司。", "start": 368.57, "end": 374.3, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 87, "text": "我以前天天去公司，就干到很晚。", "start": 374.82, "end": 376.74, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 88, "text": "觉得就真的是有半年就不用去公司了，因为公司没事可做，然后也不敢去。", "start": 376.94, "end": 380.94, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 89, "text": "在想做事情之前，我已经消化很长时间了，我已经思考很长段时间人生的意义是什么了。", "start": 381.42, "end": 385.98, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 90, "text": "但我后来觉得人生还是应该参与这个世界的一点点变革，哪怕创造只有一点点贡献也是意义哈，至少对我这种人来说，我在老的时候回过头来看，这辈子不后悔，我觉得还是要做点事的。", "start": 386.38, "end": 397.46, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 91, "text": "嗯。", "start": 397.62, "end": 397.86, "speaker": "3" }, { "index": 92, "text": "对，所以我后来想清楚这些事后，我就去包括硅谷待了一段时间，然后因为我原在交大，学那个电子信息工程。", "start": 397.86, "end": 403.74, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 93, "text": "啊，所以啊，我很多同学在美国嘛，搞 ai 啊，搞什么，然后我就聊了很多人。", "start": 404.9, "end": 410.02, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 94, "text": "所以我我当时做机器人是因为第一，这个我聊了很多这个事，当时 chatgpt 在3.0，没到3.5，但我觉得有机会。", "start": 410.46, "end": 417.5, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 95, "text": "啊，我看完它的一些落地应用，觉得哎，很有意思，未来 maybe 能够落到一些东西上。", "start": 418.06, "end": 422.94, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 96, "text": "第二呢，因为我原来学这个东西，所以我在学校时候也参加过很多这种比赛，但我们那也是比较早的，以前都是搞什么智能车啊，电子设计啊这种。", "start": 423.14, "end": 431.14, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 97, "text": "然后哎，我觉得这可能可以结合，然后最后呢，我又在想一个事，就是因为我我做家庭做了很多年啊，我还是有些优势的啊，因为我很了解这这些用户啊。", "start": 431.62, "end": 441.1, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 98, "text": "孩子啊，妈妈啊，爸爸啊，或者是家庭成员。", "start": 441.42, "end": 443.94, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 99, "text": "首先这三个结合是不是可以做家庭机器人？", "start": 444.38, "end": 447.3, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 100, "text": "嗯。", "start": 447.46, "end": 447.66, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 101, "text": "而且呢，我当时想，如果我还要做一个事的话，这个事必须比以前大，否则我没有动力。", "start": 447.7, "end": 452.94, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 102, "text": "对。", "start": 453.74, "end": 454.02, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 103, "text": "所以呢，我当时觉得家庭机器人几十年后每人每户买一家，放在家里用，这是个极大概率事情。", "start": 454.38, "end": 460.5, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 104, "text": "对，所以当时就也看了一圈哈，包括到曾格做那个 er。", "start": 461.34, "end": 466.78, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 105, "text": "嗯。", "start": 466.98, "end": 467.22, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 106, "text": "啊，当时也和曾格一起看一些各种机器人公司啊，看完我就想做机器人。", "start": 467.38, "end": 471.06, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 107, "text": "刚才提到这个在一直寻找机会，而且一定要做一个比之前更大的事情，可能这样你才会有动力。", "start": 471.26, "end": 476.78, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 108, "text": "有没有那么一个就关键时刻，你决定好了就是它了，我就是要 all in 开始干机器人了。", "start": 477.14, "end": 482.06, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 109, "text": "我已经忘了哈，是谁就跟我说过这句话，就是20年后每家每户一定会买一个机器人。", "start": 482.34, "end": 486.74, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 110, "text": "嗯。", "start": 487.02, "end": 487.22, "speaker": "4" }, { "index": 111, "text": "然后这句话非常适合我，我觉得这个事是一个确实是很有意义的事，而且有意义的事是因为现在没有人做，那我觉得我要做的事情一定不是有很多人已经在做，或很多人想去做的事，因为那多一个我没有意义。", "start": 487.3, "end": 501.54, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 112, "text": "所以我觉得我觉得这个事是有前瞻性的。", "start": 501.66, "end": 504.38, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 113, "text": "嗯。", "start": 504.54, "end": 504.78, "speaker": "4" }, { "index": 114, "text": "对，而且我觉得正确的事情最后一定会迎来好的结果，因为这个方向是正确的。", "start": 504.94, "end": 510.9, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 115, "text": "嗯。", "start": 510.98, "end": 511.1, "speaker": "4" }, { "index": 116, "text": "家庭机器人现在没有人做。", "start": 511.42, "end": 512.82, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 117, "text": "但是这个方向一定是正确的。", "start": 513.19, "end": 515.39, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 118, "text": "嗯。", "start": 515.47, "end": 515.75, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 119, "text": "对，最后一定会收到反馈。", "start": 515.79, "end": 517.27, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 120, "text": "这很像是难而正确的事情。", "start": 517.43, "end": 519.39, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 121, "text": "对。", "start": 519.67, "end": 519.95, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 122, "text": "这一两年巨声大爆发的，尤其是今年这个春节过完年回来之后，各种融资的头条新闻就是一个接一个的。", "start": 520.11, "end": 527.19, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 123, "text": "非常的疯狂。", "start": 527.83, "end": 528.95, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 124, "text": "那你会认为自己提前了四年来做这个事情，你因为提前的这个时间段得到了哪些优势吗？", "start": 529.23, "end": 536.87, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 125, "text": "当时为什么选机器人行业哈，而不是选 AI 就是说机器人提前的复利是比 AI 大的。", "start": 537.03, "end": 543.63, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 126, "text": "嗯。", "start": 543.75, "end": 543.87, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 127, "text": "因为 AI 这个它迭代太快了，因为它是个纯算法软件的事情，但机器人它是有软硬件结合的东西。", "start": 543.87, "end": 549.87, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 128, "text": "一旦东西碰到软硬结合呢，它速度就非常慢。", "start": 550.6, "end": 553.52, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 129, "text": "嗯。", "start": 553.64, "end": 553.92, "speaker": "4" }, { "index": 130, "text": "对吧？", "start": 554.4, "end": 554.64, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 131, "text": "比方说你说宇树的研发成本是不是很高？", "start": 554.68, "end": 557.12, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 132, "text": "其实也没有特别夸张，对吧？", "start": 557.16, "end": 558.72, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 133, "text": "一年大几千万。", "start": 558.76, "end": 559.64, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 134, "text": "但是呢，你说你现在花10个亿，是不是能造出像宇树一样， locomotion 啊，各方面稳定性这么好的一个机器人？", "start": 559.88, "end": 567.0, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 135, "text": "不可能。", "start": 567.72, "end": 568.2, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 136, "text": "嗯。", "start": 568.32, "end": 568.56, "speaker": "4" }, { "index": 137, "text": "或者还非常难，它不是个钱的问题，时间问题。", "start": 568.72, "end": 570.8, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 138, "text": "所以是因为它碰到了硬件，所以它选机器人也是因为它是个软硬结合，它不只有大脑，还有小脑，还有硬件。", "start": 570.8, "end": 575.4, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 139, "text": "所以一旦你提前做，确实在打磨硬件上你有很大优势，比如说你的硬件成本更低。", "start": 575.64, "end": 580.76, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 140, "text": "而且稳定性更好，更丝滑，你的臂不会抖，对吧？", "start": 581.09, "end": 583.85, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 141, "text": "就有各种各样的一些东西，所以我们当时就计划就是先憋三年。", "start": 583.93, "end": 588.37, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 142, "text": "嗯。", "start": 588.53, "end": 588.77, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 143, "text": "把整个这个东西确实做到消费级，做到相对 ready 产品化的程度再出来。", "start": 589.01, "end": 595.09, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 144, "text": "对，这个先憋三年这个判断是怎么来的呀？", "start": 595.73, "end": 598.53, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 145, "text": "因为刚才其实我们有聊到，你说前面都是自己的钱再去跑这个团队，对吧？", "start": 598.53, "end": 602.69, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 146, "text": "这其实也不是一笔小钱，但是是出于什么考虑，你要先憋三年？", "start": 602.69, "end": 608.29, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 147, "text": "我觉得是这样的，因为家庭机器人这个东西啊。", "start": 608.53, "end": 611.05, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 148, "text": "嗯。", "start": 611.49, "end": 611.73, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 149, "text": "我觉得有点超前。", "start": 611.73, "end": 612.65, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 150, "text": "有点超前。", "start": 612.97, "end": 613.61, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 151, "text": "对，就是哪怕你一开始天天出来讲。", "start": 613.85, "end": 616.01, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 152, "text": "大家也不一定能理解。", "start": 616.89, "end": 617.57, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 153, "text": "嗯。", "start": 617.69, "end": 617.89, "speaker": "4" }, { "index": 154, "text": "但大家最终一定能理解。", "start": 618.01, "end": 619.17, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 155, "text": "所以我觉得这个时候呢，我不用一个人出来改变一个大家对它的看法，对我不如好好把产品做出来。", "start": 619.29, "end": 625.21, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 156, "text": "比如说今天家庭机器人，我们的产品拿出来，大家说哇，这个产品化程度很高，觉得哎，产品化这么高，其他公司看了一圈其他都没人这么高，对吧？", "start": 625.29, "end": 633.17, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 157, "text": "就我我想做到这种啊哈 moment 就很 surprise 的情况下再出来。", "start": 633.33, "end": 636.53, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 158, "text": "当然第二呢？", "start": 636.61, "end": 637.33, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 159, "text": "其实我经历过一次创业的起和落，我想我如果再出来融资，我要很确定这个事是能成的。", "start": 638.25, "end": 645.73, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 160, "text": "对，否则后面有的收拾。", "start": 646.13, "end": 649.53, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 161, "text": "第一我说三年，我想确定这个事确实能做到消费级，而且能产品化，而且这个功能确实像我我出来的时候，其实我的用产品已经有些用户去试用了。", "start": 650.05, "end": 659.17, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 162, "text": "反馈不错。", "start": 659.55, "end": 660.07, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 163, "text": "嗯。", "start": 660.23, "end": 660.39, "speaker": "3" }, { "index": 164, "text": "在当时就是决定做机器人的时候，是有纠结过做工业还是做家庭吗？", "start": 660.51, "end": 666.87, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 165, "text": "嗯。", "start": 666.87, "end": 667.11, "speaker": "3" }, { "index": 166, "text": "呃，其实没有。", "start": 667.91, "end": 668.79, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 167, "text": "对于我个人来说啊，我会这么看，因为很多图 b 的技术到最后其实也没有什么特别高的壁垒，对吧？", "start": 669.23, "end": 675.39, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 168, "text": "那这个时候到最后就杀价格，就最后很难盈利，对吧？", "start": 675.63, "end": 678.63, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 169, "text": "比如说同样做清洁机器人，如果你做图 b 和图 c 是不一样的。", "start": 678.67, "end": 681.35, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 170, "text": "图 c 的现在的那些公司利润都非常高，但图 b 呢，就相对 struggle 一点，可能卖海外还好，卖国内是非常 struggle 的。", "start": 681.59, "end": 687.79, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 171, "text": "图 c 的点是在于，一旦你的产品体验非常好，你这个品牌大家就最认可，因为这个领域你这个品牌做的确实产品质量 ok。", "start": 687.95, "end": 694.55, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 172, "text": "大家体验很好，但这个品牌本本身就值一个溢价。", "start": 694.9, "end": 697.46, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 173, "text": "这个溢价会让你就一定利润，然后你就会拿这个利润去投入，做出更好的产品，你就会形成正反馈。", "start": 697.86, "end": 702.3, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 174, "text": "所以，我一直做 to c 哈，我觉得 to c 这种反馈的方式更适合我啊。", "start": 702.34, "end": 707.22, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 175, "text": "然后这个定了做 to c 定了做家庭之后，你们就开干嘛。", "start": 707.3, "end": 710.66, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 176, "text": "那个时候你做的第一件事情是什么呀？", "start": 710.9, "end": 713.66, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 177, "text": "第一件事情是招人。", "start": 714.06, "end": 716.62, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 178, "text": "啊，招什么样的人呢？", "start": 717.34, "end": 718.66, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 179, "text": "应该找一些合伙人啊，一些核心的这个工程师啊，还有这个硬件的人也招了不少，嵌入式。", "start": 718.86, "end": 725.58, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 180, "text": "什么时候开始真的认真地定义产品的？", "start": 726.11, "end": 728.63, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 181, "text": "啊，其实从第一天我们就在一直在寻找产品的这个方向。", "start": 728.95, "end": 731.95, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 182, "text": "我记得我在国内和在北美应该都分别发了有五六千份问卷，电话访谈了就跟他聊，你这像你怎么看？", "start": 732.51, "end": 742.07, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 183, "text": "你你觉得什么样的功能你会买？", "start": 742.27, "end": 743.71, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 184, "text": "啊，到什么样的程度是一个 ready 的状态？", "start": 743.99, "end": 745.79, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 185, "text": "我们一直在寻找这个，就说所谓未来不远哈，但到底多远，我们也想确定这个时间。", "start": 745.83, "end": 751.03, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 186, "text": "所以什么时候你们比较笃信第一版产品的这种功能的列表或者卖点的这些取舍定下来了？", "start": 751.51, "end": 759.59, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 187, "text": "去年底。", "start": 760.31, "end": 760.99, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 188, "text": "那不就三个月前？", "start": 762.03, "end": 763.31, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 189, "text": "三个月前，因为之前一直都是研发，就是你大概有这个方向，但是你不确定这个方向对不对。", "start": 763.59, "end": 768.43, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 190, "text": "有人说这个好，有人说这个不好。", "start": 768.67, "end": 770.19, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 191, "text": "他说叠衣服值五百块，他说扫地值两千，他说那个什么，然后你加起来发现还是搞不到那个价，你那个机器成本还无法覆盖对吧？", "start": 770.75, "end": 779.27, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 192, "text": "所以你要寻找很多方式，然后为什么是去年底呢？", "start": 779.43, "end": 782.31, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 193, "text": "因为去年下半年我们的机器人可以进家庭了。", "start": 782.59, "end": 785.39, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 194, "text": "ok。", "start": 785.63, "end": 785.79, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 195, "text": "已经到 ready 状态，稳定性啊，各种成本啊，各种放话情况啊，对吧？", "start": 786.03, "end": 791.51, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 196, "text": "然后开始进人家家里用。", "start": 791.99, "end": 793.35, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 197, "text": "用了以后，人家反馈 ok。", "start": 793.88, "end": 794.8, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 198, "text": "去了多少家庭？", "start": 795.2, "end": 796.12, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 199, "text": "这些家庭都是什么样的家庭啊？", "start": 796.32, "end": 798.08, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 200, "text": "应该是有300个家庭，我在上海。", "start": 798.52, "end": 800.16, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 201, "text": "你们送他们进家庭的时候，是带着什么样的这种状态送他们进去的？", "start": 800.28, "end": 805.16, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 202, "text": "是他们进去了，比如说安排好了十个功能，一个一个用，还是他们进去的时候也是一张白纸，就是你们期待这个用户看他们怎么用？", "start": 805.16, "end": 813.36, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 203, "text": "嗯。", "start": 813.44, "end": 813.72, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 204, "text": "啊，你总结得非常好，这是我们几个阶段，就是您说的这几个阶段来的。", "start": 814.12, "end": 818.56, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 205, "text": "嗯。", "start": 818.6, "end": 818.76, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 206, "text": "一开始进去呢，其实有一些能力我们是比较自信的。", "start": 819.0, "end": 823.6, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 207, "text": "一开始的时候啊，就是告诉他你只能干这几个事，对吧？", "start": 824.14, "end": 827.5, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 208, "text": "最一开始哈。", "start": 827.58, "end": 828.18, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 209, "text": "然后后来呢，逐渐这个随着迭代和优化，后来就告就告诉他，哎，你可以开始自由发挥了。", "start": 828.78, "end": 835.38, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 210, "text": "然后到现在呢，我们很多功能反而都是用户用完后他提给我们的。", "start": 835.78, "end": 839.7, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 211, "text": "哦。", "start": 840.3, "end": 840.46, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 212, "text": "比方说我们一开始之前一开始不会下棋啊，很多用户说他下棋，对吧？", "start": 840.7, "end": 844.58, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 213, "text": "很多小孩子下棋，他说他看电脑下棋两小时，对吧？", "start": 844.62, "end": 847.86, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 214, "text": "就是眼睛都坏掉了。", "start": 848.42, "end": 849.5, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 215, "text": "很多人说啊，你能不能下棋？", "start": 849.82, "end": 850.94, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 216, "text": "后来我们就专门强化这个功能，而且我们是夹磁式的，只能下各种各样的棋。", "start": 851.02, "end": 855.1, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 217, "text": "对。", "start": 855.66, "end": 855.98, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 218, "text": "举个例子哈，还有小孩你都想象不到哈，比如说捉迷藏。", "start": 856.54, "end": 860.3, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 219, "text": "捉迷藏。", "start": 860.94, "end": 861.38, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 220, "text": "那小孩他他喜欢玩捉迷藏。", "start": 861.74, "end": 862.98, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 221, "text": "嗯。", "start": 863.22, "end": 863.38, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 222, "text": "然后呢，他确实玩得很开心，每天都玩捉迷藏。", "start": 863.38, "end": 865.54, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 223, "text": "我们就发现诶，这个这很有意思啊。", "start": 865.78, "end": 867.74, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 224, "text": "嗯。", "start": 868.02, "end": 868.3, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 225, "text": "然后就专门把这个东西强化了，做了捉迷藏。", "start": 868.38, "end": 870.5, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 226, "text": "对，所以后来就就是叠加越多，其实是一个共创的过程。", "start": 870.66, "end": 873.98, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 227, "text": "可不可以介绍一下 f 二就我们今天要上市的这款新产品啊？", "start": 874.22, "end": 877.98, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 228, "text": "比如说你面前有一个目标客户，比如说我其实也算目标客户吧。", "start": 878.22, "end": 881.9, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 229, "text": "对对对。", "start": 881.9, "end": 882.3, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 230, "text": "那你会怎么去安利他？", "start": 882.5, "end": 884.22, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 231, "text": "啊，它有两个功能哈，啊，一个是带娃，第二是做些轻家务。", "start": 884.74, "end": 889.06, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 232, "text": "ok 带娃和轻家务。", "start": 889.34, "end": 890.94, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 233, "text": "对，很重要的需求，每天我们上班很累，回去还要带娃子，它能帮我解决晚上的问题。", "start": 891.1, "end": 895.94, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 234, "text": "嗯，那我当然很开心，对吧？", "start": 896.24, "end": 897.92, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 235, "text": "他能帮他读绘本，陪他弹钢琴，然后陪他搞小提琴，能带他下棋，还能帮他找乐高，然后还能玩一些其他的，什么捉迷藏啊，跟他一起扔篮球啊，对吧？", "start": 897.96, "end": 908.92, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 236, "text": "又有运动，又有非运动，对吧？", "start": 909.2, "end": 911.64, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 237, "text": "然后搞完了，睡觉还能陪他讲故事，讲完他就睡，对吧？", "start": 912.0, "end": 916.16, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 238, "text": "然后呢，你把灯关了出来，对吧？", "start": 916.2, "end": 918.0, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 239, "text": "我们一开始想做养老啊。", "start": 918.08, "end": 919.28, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 240, "text": "嗯。", "start": 919.44, "end": 919.6, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 241, "text": "说那个很多退休老人，我们说你孤独吗？", "start": 919.68, "end": 922.64, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 242, "text": "陪伴你，他说你帮我带娃。", "start": 922.72, "end": 924.4, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 243, "text": "就不是陪老人，是帮老人带孙子。", "start": 924.88, "end": 926.88, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 244, "text": "嗯，然后当然，嗯，80岁以上老人是另一个群体啊，他可能需要的是护理啊，做菜啊，这种厨房类功能。", "start": 927.04, "end": 932.28, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 245, "text": "所以当我们说到带娃的时候，你刚才提到了很多的场景，甚至我听到有一个是这个陪他拉小提琴。", "start": 932.61, "end": 938.09, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 246, "text": "嗯。", "start": 938.29, "end": 938.49, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 247, "text": "那这是一个什么样的陪法呀？", "start": 938.49, "end": 940.13, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 248, "text": "啊，它是听音识曲，你弹得对不对，包括你的指法啊，坐姿啊。", "start": 940.37, "end": 944.73, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 249, "text": "嗯。", "start": 944.89, "end": 945.09, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 250, "text": "都实时纠正。", "start": 945.09, "end": 945.85, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 251, "text": "它可以和你对话的。", "start": 946.21, "end": 947.41, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 252, "text": "可以对话，当然。", "start": 947.57, "end": 948.29, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 253, "text": "嗯嗯。", "start": 948.37, "end": 949.01, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 254, "text": "对。", "start": 949.09, "end": 949.37, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 255, "text": "你看到什么年龄段的小孩对机器人的这种互动是最好的？", "start": 949.61, "end": 954.41, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 256, "text": "中班以上到小学。", "start": 954.57, "end": 956.65, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 257, "text": "嗯。", "start": 956.89, "end": 957.13, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 258, "text": "为什么这个阶段是最好的呢？", "start": 957.65, "end": 959.61, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 259, "text": "一方面它得有唤醒一个智能音箱的能力，它不全是学习啊，它还玩游戏，对吧？", "start": 959.89, "end": 964.77, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 260, "text": "玩萝卜蹲呐。", "start": 965.01, "end": 965.93, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 261, "text": "啊，怎么跟机器人玩这种东西是吧？", "start": 966.69, "end": 968.17, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 262, "text": "它它有很多的玩法，然后稍微小学一点的，它可以下下棋呀，比较高阶一点的，对吧？", "start": 968.17, "end": 973.77, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 263, "text": "还有就是形成一个数据飞轮，因为随着越来越多互动，它是机器人，它有越来越多数据，它会是丰富我们的大脑。", "start": 974.17, "end": 980.53, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 264, "text": "我也最近给小孩买了一个机器狗啊，也是能够听它的指令去做一些事情，也能对话。", "start": 980.81, "end": 986.85, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 265, "text": "但我发现他们就玩了，可能就是一个小时之后就没兴趣了。", "start": 987.13, "end": 991.57, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 266, "text": "那从你们的角度来看，就是已经送到这个家庭里面的咱们的机器人，小孩能和它平均玩多久？", "start": 991.85, "end": 999.33, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 267, "text": "去年刚开始进家的时候。", "start": 999.65, "end": 1001.01, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 268, "text": "在人家家里一般放一两天。", "start": 1001.35, "end": 1002.79, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 269, "text": "嗯。", "start": 1003.07, "end": 1003.27, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 270, "text": "一两天的原因倒不是他不想玩，而是我们机器不稳定，放一两天就要去维护了。", "start": 1003.47, "end": 1008.07, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 271, "text": "一直到像这个月我们在家里都是放一两个月了，一两个月才上门维护。", "start": 1008.11, "end": 1012.23, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 272, "text": "其实一两个月用户每天还是用几个小时的。", "start": 1012.39, "end": 1016.03, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 273, "text": "我这一一直是个 product manager 的，就是东西是要续费的，还有转介绍的。", "start": 1016.15, "end": 1021.47, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 274, "text": "就这两个指标在后面是非常非常重要的。", "start": 1021.71, "end": 1023.75, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 275, "text": "嗯。", "start": 1023.75, "end": 1023.95, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 276, "text": "对吧？", "start": 1023.95, "end": 1024.19, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 277, "text": "50%转介绍率还30%，这决定了你判断这个产品好不好。", "start": 1024.27, "end": 1027.35, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 278, "text": "嗯。", "start": 1027.43, "end": 1027.59, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 279, "text": "对，而不是说我今天卖了多少量，那可能是一波流，但口碑啊什么是非常重要，口碑的一个前置条件就是我的使用时长，我的衰减会怎么样？", "start": 1027.67, "end": 1036.03, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 280, "text": "所以当我们看到我们的用户一两个月后还一直在用，我们就觉得很开心。", "start": 1036.11, "end": 1039.67, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 281, "text": "咱们目前是按月有一个这个订阅的机制吗？", "start": 1039.87, "end": 1043.31, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 282, "text": "就是还是一次买断呀？", "start": 1043.35, "end": 1044.67, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 283, "text": "对，我们现在是按租的方式。", "start": 1045.09, "end": 1046.45, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 284, "text": "嗯。", "start": 1046.69, "end": 1046.89, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 285, "text": "因为我们也不可能在家放很久啊，我们还要拿回来升级啊，什么维护啊。", "start": 1046.93, "end": 1050.69, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 286, "text": "嗯。", "start": 1050.81, "end": 1051.05, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 287, "text": "正式上市之后呢，你打算这两种方式，因为像我们租现在一个月租三四千块钱，然后呢第二种就是你可以比如说买断，对，或者是买断便宜点，但付一些订阅费，如果你解锁一些高阶功能。", "start": 1051.49, "end": 1063.33, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 288, "text": "因为其实我们想的是后面有一些功能可能还是要消耗一些算力的。", "start": 1063.33, "end": 1067.33, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 289, "text": "咱们刚才说到这个，一个是教育，另外一个还有主要的场景是轻家务，那轻家务包括什么？", "start": 1067.33, "end": 1073.69, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 290, "text": "比如说帮你收纳个玩具啊，啊，捡个垃圾呀，啊，这些轻家务对吧？", "start": 1073.81, "end": 1078.29, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 291, "text": "而且它对于鲁班现在要求也不一定特别高，对。", "start": 1078.33, "end": 1081.77, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 292, "text": "重家务呢，最重的家务其实是厨房，因为里面的瓶瓶罐罐非常多，还有各种很脏的油腻的。", "start": 1082.33, "end": 1088.13, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 293, "text": "重家务我认为还有几年时间，所以我们是从轻家务开始。", "start": 1088.33, "end": 1091.49, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 294, "text": "嗯。", "start": 1091.69, "end": 1091.93, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 295, "text": "然后再通过不断地有更多的数据，在家里面有更多数据，它就形成数据飞轮。", "start": 1091.97, "end": 1096.57, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 296, "text": "刚才其实咱们有提到一个点，就是你说这个和用户调研的时候，他会认为这个功能值三百，那个功能值五百。", "start": 1096.89, "end": 1103.33, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 297, "text": "你们是用这种方式在定价吗？", "start": 1103.69, "end": 1105.61, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 298, "text": "就从我能做几件事情，然后它们分别值多少，最后加起来值一个总价？", "start": 1105.61, "end": 1110.05, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 299, "text": "还是你们在用什么别的方式来这个最终决定定价的？", "start": 1110.33, "end": 1113.57, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 300, "text": "我发现卖一个东西是看你对标什么东西。", "start": 1113.77, "end": 1115.97, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 301, "text": "比如说你做这个东西就是为了做家务吗？", "start": 1116.17, "end": 1118.41, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 302, "text": "是为了对标一个阿姨吗？", "start": 1118.45, "end": 1120.09, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 303, "text": "那阿姨其实不贵的，比如说就算在上海这样城市，可能也就七八千块钱一个月。", "start": 1120.81, "end": 1125.49, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 304, "text": "嗯。", "start": 1125.61, "end": 1125.81, "speaker": "3" }, { "index": 305, "text": "她能做很多家务，轻重家务都能做，对吧？", "start": 1125.85, "end": 1128.13, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 306, "text": "你只能做轻家务，然后你的机器可能成本两万三万之类的哈。", "start": 1128.53, "end": 1134.05, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 307, "text": "所以后来我们说为什么哎，带娃变成了一个功能了。", "start": 1134.25, "end": 1137.41, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 308, "text": "你做一个商品得是比现在的东西性价比更高，那才是有意义的嘛。", "start": 1137.81, "end": 1142.01, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 309, "text": "对，带娃呢，就比如说你，你现在想找一个帮你带娃的，然后可能还会，不只会讲中文，还会比如说讲点英语啊，还能陪你小孩下个棋啊，那这种阿姨你可能真的很贵很贵。", "start": 1142.41, "end": 1156.41, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 310, "text": "嗯。", "start": 1156.57, "end": 1156.73, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 311, "text": "你可能在上海这样的城市，一个月3万到4万，你可能都找不到，对吧？", "start": 1156.77, "end": 1160.09, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 312, "text": "因为这个就很很难哈。", "start": 1160.09, "end": 1161.81, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 313, "text": "所以如果能做出一款能够达到这些水平的产品，那我觉得是值这个钱的。", "start": 1162.21, "end": 1167.01, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 314, "text": "其实你刚才有提到，你们一开始预设了非常多的功能，然后把它送去家庭，然后这里面有哪些预设的功能给了你们惊喜，或者给了你们这个惊吓？", "start": 1167.37, "end": 1177.45, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 315, "text": "惊喜，其实还是有挺多的，比如说陪娃玩这个事，我们当时调研的时候觉得就没调研出来这个东西。", "start": 1178.21, "end": 1186.81, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 316, "text": "嗯。", "start": 1187.01, "end": 1187.25, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 317, "text": "但是进家后来发现。", "start": 1187.33, "end": 1188.41, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 318, "text": "因为它有个机械臂嘛。", "start": 1189.01, "end": 1190.33, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 319, "text": "嗯。", "start": 1190.41, "end": 1190.61, "speaker": "4" }, { "index": 320, "text": "导致它玩的东西就很花里胡哨。", "start": 1190.93, "end": 1193.33, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 321, "text": "嗯。", "start": 1193.53, "end": 1193.73, "speaker": "4" }, { "index": 322, "text": "就是娃很想让它陪他玩各种东西，因为娃家里的玩具都没有手，它第一次有手，哎能跟它一起拿东西，它把车小车咻飞出去，然后它捡回来，它咻出去飞回来，那那年龄段低一点的哈。", "start": 1193.85, "end": 1205.61, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 323, "text": "就是哎这个居然还能玩个两小时，然后它第二天可能玩别的哈，别的玩法，所以我们觉得这个是很 surprise 所以才这才真正让我们关注到。", "start": 1205.97, "end": 1214.25, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 324, "text": "然后你说惊吓呢，也有，比如说家里有狗的，有猫的，然后呢，它进去以后呢，发现有一户，他家的狗它就一晚上都睡不好觉，然后它主人就说，哎呀算了，它的狗连觉都睡不好，那这不行，后来我们才专门去研发。", "start": 1214.29, "end": 1229.37, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 325, "text": "怎么搞狗？", "start": 1229.72, "end": 1230.24, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 326, "text": "嗯。", "start": 1230.44, "end": 1230.6, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 327, "text": "啊，所以后来发现诶，搞狗这个事好像也是个挺有意思的事哈，就开始训练，你要喂狗粮。", "start": 1230.6, "end": 1235.16, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 328, "text": "嗯。", "start": 1235.32, "end": 1235.48, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 329, "text": "对吧？", "start": 1235.52, "end": 1235.8, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 330, "text": "猫呢，有点像鸡毛掸子那种，陪它玩，跟它搞个一两个小时，那个熟悉就不怕你了。", "start": 1236.24, "end": 1240.72, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 331, "text": "嗯。", "start": 1240.84, "end": 1240.96, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 332, "text": "后来发现这个东西也挺有意思的，动物也有托班，一个月也要几千块。", "start": 1241.0, "end": 1245.32, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 333, "text": "对，就说其实这个世界上的商品有两种嘛，一种是产品，一种是服务。", "start": 1245.76, "end": 1249.68, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 334, "text": "对。", "start": 1250.04, "end": 1250.24, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 335, "text": "啊，其实家庭机器人看上去它是一个产品，但其实它背后卖的是服务。", "start": 1250.28, "end": 1255.16, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 336, "text": "没错。", "start": 1255.52, "end": 1255.84, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 337, "text": "嗯。", "start": 1256.04, "end": 1256.24, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 338, "text": "没错，因为服务这个东西很贵，然后呢也很难标准化。", "start": 1256.32, "end": 1260.88, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 339, "text": "嗯。", "start": 1261.04, "end": 1261.2, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 340, "text": "但我觉得通过机器的方式可以用从物理 ai 的方式让很多东西标准化。", "start": 1261.2, "end": 1266.16, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 341, "text": "所以其实我们肯定是希望家庭机器人进家庭之后能做的事情越多越泛化越好。", "start": 1266.4, "end": 1272.08, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 342, "text": "但这里就会有一个问题是，大家会认为这个人形机器人就双足，比起轮式，它可能可以适应更多的家庭的空间。", "start": 1272.45, "end": 1282.01, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 343, "text": "啊，但是显然咱们选的应该是轮式，可以讲一下这背后你们的这个。", "start": 1282.53, "end": 1286.77, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 344, "text": "ok思考吗？", "start": 1286.81, "end": 1287.69, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 345, "text": "我觉得轮式和机器人，哎，和双足各有优劣。", "start": 1287.85, "end": 1292.41, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 346, "text": "嗯。", "start": 1292.73, "end": 1292.93, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 347, "text": "对，也不敢一概而论哈。", "start": 1292.93, "end": 1294.53, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 348, "text": "啊，但轮式的优势呢，是在室内场景它性价比确实非常高，这个性价比包括安全性、稳定性。", "start": 1295.21, "end": 1301.05, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 349, "text": "嗯。", "start": 1301.21, "end": 1301.37, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 350, "text": "对吧？", "start": 1301.37, "end": 1301.65, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 351, "text": "因为你说双足嘛，你真的拿到家里，我们也买过哈。", "start": 1301.93, "end": 1305.01, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 352, "text": "包括买个狗哈，这个其实确实不太适合在家里，为什么呢？", "start": 1305.96, "end": 1308.88, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 353, "text": "你把它提起来它会飞车，它的脚会会开始乱乱飞，对吧？", "start": 1308.88, "end": 1312.12, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 354, "text": "一旦不稳定，所以这个还是比较危险的。", "start": 1312.28, "end": 1314.16, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 355, "text": "所以呢，我觉得室内场里面轮它很稳，安全度也很高，对吧？", "start": 1314.36, "end": 1318.32, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 356, "text": "然后除了你说欧美家庭别墅哈，那另外说，像中国大部分家庭平层，其实轮式它已经非常稳定能处理很多活了，而且它不需要考虑这个稳定性问题，对吧？", "start": 1318.32, "end": 1327.6, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 357, "text": "它这本身就很稳定，你只要配重做好，底盘足够重，对吧？", "start": 1327.64, "end": 1330.8, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 358, "text": "它就，对吧？", "start": 1330.84, "end": 1331.64, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 359, "text": "包括它的电池也比较大，因为在下面，所以它的续航能力比较强。", "start": 1331.96, "end": 1336.12, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 360, "text": "其实从我们从一开始的底层结构和架构就是这样的。", "start": 1336.44, "end": 1339.6, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 361, "text": "就在我们录播客的这一两个月哈，就是这个世界模型突然就是铺天盖地而来。", "start": 1339.88, "end": 1345.12, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 362, "text": "然后我们也听说这个有世界模型的研究员拿到1000万的高薪，啊，有非常多这个做世界模型的创业公司在资本市场很受追捧。", "start": 1345.48, "end": 1354.12, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 363, "text": "就你怎么看世界模型？", "start": 1354.64, "end": 1355.76, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 364, "text": "世界模型确实给了至少至少我很多 surprise 因为它在 zero shot 方面就大白话说哈，从来没见过东西，它能够有个百分之几十的鲁棒性，就这个确实很 surprise 的，因为 v i 之前是非常难做到这个事的。", "start": 1356.0, "end": 1371.56, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 365, "text": "所以我觉得从这个角度讲，它是有一定优势的。", "start": 1371.79, "end": 1375.27, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 366, "text": "当然世界模型的定义呢，有很多很多很多啊，我是以这个比如英伟达 dream zero 为例来讲的世界模型哈。", "start": 1375.27, "end": 1381.07, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 367, "text": "所以呢，我觉得从底层方式上讲，本来像我们这种做机器人的，做家庭机器人的，泛化性是非常重要的。", "start": 1381.51, "end": 1388.75, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 368, "text": "嗯。", "start": 1388.75, "end": 1388.95, "speaker": "3" }, { "index": 369, "text": "对吧？", "start": 1388.95, "end": 1389.23, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 370, "text": "zero shot总会遇到，corner case 非常多。", "start": 1389.63, "end": 1391.83, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 371, "text": "所以从我们这个场景的方式来说，那它一定是会比 VLA 更具前瞻性。", "start": 1392.27, "end": 1397.27, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 372, "text": "这两个月我们才引入了很多世界模型的人。", "start": 1397.39, "end": 1399.47, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 373, "text": "对，当然世界模型的人确实之前在国内做的不是很多，但确实找到这个人才很重要。", "start": 1399.71, "end": 1404.31, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 374, "text": "当然他也不一定是个终点，因为他毕竟在 zero shot 方面，鲁棒性也不是说百分之一百，那还是有相当的路要走。", "start": 1404.39, "end": 1410.19, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 375, "text": "所以我觉得至少在现阶段呢，两条路并行是很多公司的选择。", "start": 1410.41, "end": 1414.29, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 376, "text": "嗯。", "start": 1414.41, "end": 1414.65, "speaker": "4" }, { "index": 377, "text": "包括 vla 也还是有很多的迭代的，所以也不能直接否掉。", "start": 1414.65, "end": 1418.01, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 378, "text": "但我只是说从基本的方式理解上来说，cm 模型是有一定推理能力的，vla是没有的。", "start": 1418.05, "end": 1423.09, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 379, "text": "还有推理这个事，它就变成说它能够预测一个东西的轨迹，所以它这个能力是非常强的，而且它的训练方式呢也不太一样。", "start": 1423.45, "end": 1430.37, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 380, "text": "比如说它灌注很多的视频，对吧？", "start": 1430.81, "end": 1433.77, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 381, "text": "它更轻量了。", "start": 1433.85, "end": 1434.65, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 382, "text": "包括比如说它只需要一个头上戴个摄像头，手部直接操作就可以了，没有那么重，对吧？", "start": 1434.89, "end": 1440.17, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 383, "text": "所以它确实有一些优势，但是现在还很难说，因为它鲁棒性也没有达到说。", "start": 1440.17, "end": 1443.89, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 384, "text": "百分之一百的这种情况，对吧？", "start": 1445.25, "end": 1446.69, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 385, "text": "很多还是在论文阶段。", "start": 1446.69, "end": 1447.89, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 386, "text": "对，所以只能说它从方式上是更先进的。", "start": 1448.13, "end": 1451.37, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 387, "text": "咱们其实有非常多的选择是自研，对不对？", "start": 1451.61, "end": 1455.37, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 388, "text": "我不知道是不是方便分享一下，就你们有哪些选择了自研，就是可能在不同的公司，大家在这里有一些不同的选择的时候，你们做了哪些关键的自研选择？", "start": 1455.45, "end": 1466.37, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 389, "text": "从2年开始呢，一开始做了很多从硬件开始做自研。", "start": 1466.73, "end": 1469.53, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 390, "text": "嗯。", "start": 1469.69, "end": 1469.89, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 391, "text": "对，然后后来他就逐渐变变成全栈做自研了。", "start": 1470.53, "end": 1473.33, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 392, "text": "这个你从电机到扭距关节到整个臂啊爪啊整机啊。", "start": 1473.85, "end": 1481.05, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 393, "text": "就这些都是自研的，所以这也是为什么之前花了非常长时间。", "start": 1482.45, "end": 1485.73, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 394, "text": "然后一旦自研这个硬件呢，你那个算法也得自研，因为你要跟它打通。", "start": 1486.33, "end": 1489.65, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 395, "text": "嗯。", "start": 1489.81, "end": 1490.01, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 396, "text": "对吧？", "start": 1490.01, "end": 1490.29, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 397, "text": "所以呢，而且我们自研的还是就是一定要把成本干到很低，消费级的。", "start": 1490.93, "end": 1496.45, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 398, "text": "所以这个很多时候你在市场找不到，就这个东西它没有这么便宜的东西，所以你不得不自己搞。", "start": 1496.65, "end": 1502.09, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 399, "text": "甚至比如说这个关节里面这个孔径，你要足够大能走更多的线，市场上没有，对吧？", "start": 1502.53, "end": 1509.21, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 400, "text": "所以你只能自己定义，把这个东西给做出来。", "start": 1509.21, "end": 1511.05, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 401, "text": "自研关节，我记得之前我们交流的时候，你说你们的成本就是一千块左右，但如果是三方采购，可能要八千平均，就是怎么能够做到那么便宜呢？", "start": 1511.29, "end": 1521.61, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 402, "text": "别人这个第三方做，他其实专业做这个，为什么都做不过你们？", "start": 1522.75, "end": 1526.27, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 403, "text": "啊。", "start": 1526.35, "end": 1526.51, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 404, "text": "比如说我们想要中空大孔径的，这确实没有，对吧？", "start": 1526.87, "end": 1530.31, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 405, "text": "你让人家做，而且那必然就比较贵。", "start": 1530.39, "end": 1533.35, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 406, "text": "还有第二个更重要的事是，很多做这种关节都是工业级的，我们在家庭机器人砍掉了非常多参数。", "start": 1533.51, "end": 1539.31, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 407, "text": "比如说你看整个臂，我重复定位精度就这么多就行了，我的负载就这么多就行了。", "start": 1539.71, "end": 1544.07, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 408, "text": "并不是说我们的东西需要又要适配工厂，搬很重的物，又要去便利店拿一些各种形式的东西，我们全砍了，砍到就是极致家庭。", "start": 1544.23, "end": 1553.91, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 409, "text": "够用，ok，ready。", "start": 1554.23, "end": 1555.27, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 410, "text": "所以当然你的成本会更便宜，因为你第一个进家庭，你知道参数到什么位置为止就可以，所以每个零部件都按这个来。", "start": 1555.55, "end": 1561.87, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 411, "text": "所以全电路的自研给你们还是带来了很多的好处。", "start": 1562.07, "end": 1565.43, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 412, "text": "啊，除了刚才提到的，还有其他的好处吗？", "start": 1565.95, "end": 1568.11, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 413, "text": "啊，最大好处是你每个地方的参数都拿得到，比如说你就电流环，对吧？", "start": 1568.31, "end": 1573.23, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 414, "text": "你可以知道哎，这个每个关节实际的这个情况怎么样？", "start": 1573.23, "end": 1576.31, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 415, "text": "实际的量大小，很多东西你如果是第三方，他也不会给你开放很多接口，你也无法调到你想的数据，对吧？", "start": 1576.59, "end": 1583.75, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 416, "text": "但这可以调到后，你就可以做很多的这个优化算法。", "start": 1583.75, "end": 1586.23, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 417, "text": "对吧？", "start": 1586.65, "end": 1586.73, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 418, "text": "比如说为什么消费级的 b 有的人会做到不抖，因为它参数拿了很多，它每个接口它都拿到很多参数，它可以调得最优。", "start": 1586.77, "end": 1593.01, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 419, "text": "嗯，全链路自研有坑吗？", "start": 1593.17, "end": 1594.89, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 420, "text": "你认为？", "start": 1594.89, "end": 1595.33, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 421, "text": "啊，全链路自研当然也有坑，你要花非常多的时间，然后有些地方你是自研不出来的。", "start": 1595.73, "end": 1601.49, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 422, "text": "嗯。", "start": 1601.61, "end": 1601.77, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 423, "text": "对，比如说减速器，确实这个自研难度非常大，包括深度相机对吧？", "start": 1602.21, "end": 1606.61, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 424, "text": "但你你不可能这些也全部自研。", "start": 1606.81, "end": 1609.13, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 425, "text": "确实，那在咱们目前选择自研的这些组件里面，有哪一个是最难的呀？", "start": 1609.37, "end": 1614.13, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 426, "text": "比如说驱动器在一个巴掌大的地方，你要把它集成很多高密度的东西，对吧？", "start": 1614.33, "end": 1619.61, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 427, "text": "包括它这里面的温控怎么做，其实这一块也是我们的硬件团队花了非常长时间去调优的。", "start": 1620.09, "end": 1628.33, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 428, "text": "嗯，稳定性，对吧？", "start": 1628.55, "end": 1629.75, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 429, "text": "但这个还是能做的，所以最后还自研出来。", "start": 1630.15, "end": 1632.55, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 430, "text": "然后减速器确实一开始也是尝试过，但后来比如说孔隙太大啊，什么这种就是很多工艺问题啊，确实不好做，所以这个就放弃了。", "start": 1632.67, "end": 1640.19, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 431, "text": "诶，我记得咱们的这个用的不是五个手指的灵巧手，对不对？", "start": 1640.35, "end": 1643.59, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 432, "text": "对，我们是用二爪。", "start": 1643.99, "end": 1644.95, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 433, "text": "这是不是其实也是一个非常重要的关键选择呀？", "start": 1645.11, "end": 1648.03, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 434, "text": "啊，对，主要是现在灵巧手呢，五指呢，你现在全世界你找不到一个能够用两个月以上的灵巧手，对吧？", "start": 1648.79, "end": 1656.59, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 435, "text": "但我觉得这个东西最终肯定是能克服的，但是它确实是个工艺问题。", "start": 1657.11, "end": 1661.11, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 436, "text": "它每个关节都很小嘛。", "start": 1661.41, "end": 1662.49, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 437, "text": "嗯。", "start": 1662.53, "end": 1662.73, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 438, "text": "所以如果你天天受冲击的话，它确实比这个二爪这个这么大的一个关节确实容易坏。", "start": 1662.81, "end": 1667.25, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 439, "text": "我们其实预留了接口的，就比如你今天 d 项成熟也是可以很快换上去的。", "start": 1667.37, "end": 1670.93, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 440, "text": "嗯。", "start": 1671.01, "end": 1671.13, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 441, "text": "但是你说让我们去搞领导这个事，那我觉得这个时间确实还是相对比较长，很多公司专门在做这一块啊，所以我们也就不去参与这种了。", "start": 1671.13, "end": 1678.69, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 442, "text": "咱们都知道这个做具身，它背后其实也是有小脑有大脑的吧，这里面数据都非常的重要，尤其咱们也在做世界模型，那数据就变得更加重要。", "start": 1678.77, "end": 1687.81, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 443, "text": "我好奇的是，我不知道能分享多少啊，就是你们的数据是怎么来的？", "start": 1688.49, "end": 1693.41, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 444, "text": "就目前比如再往前看啊，你会觉得这个数据的差异是不同的厂商拉开这种竞争优势的很重要的这个一个关键点吗？", "start": 1693.41, "end": 1703.89, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 445, "text": "嗯。", "start": 1703.89, "end": 1704.05, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 446, "text": "数据肯定是很重要的一个事，对吧？", "start": 1704.37, "end": 1706.65, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 447, "text": "尤其是这几个月出来很多只做数据的公司，包括你看看英伟达啊，包括国内的一些大厂都在买数据，对吧？", "start": 1706.69, "end": 1714.41, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 448, "text": "所以当然数据很重要，大脑竞争很激烈啊，但是呢，它抄起来也很快。", "start": 1714.41, "end": 1718.65, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 449, "text": "就是如果你都是在大脑团队，有一个人做了一个比较好的一个模式哈，这个另一家公司弄出来呢，可能也就一两个月，所以这个东西跟数据比起来，它其实更快。", "start": 1719.33, "end": 1730.13, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 450, "text": "嗯。", "start": 1730.37, "end": 1730.53, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 451, "text": "但是呢，数据这个东西啊，它就。", "start": 1730.89, "end": 1734.49, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 452, "text": "比较慢了。", "start": 1735.05, "end": 1735.57, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 453, "text": "啊，因为机器人的数据确实历史上是非常少的，包括英伟达的 gem zero 你看它，我记得就是十二还是十十几个 b 对吧？", "start": 1736.05, "end": 1744.69, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 454, "text": "其实很小，说明它的数据量其实确实很少，包括一些家庭数据都很少，这个采起来确实比较困难。", "start": 1744.73, "end": 1750.29, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 455, "text": "嗯。", "start": 1750.37, "end": 1750.53, "speaker": "4" }, { "index": 456, "text": "我觉得这个确实会最终决定一个机器人公司，就是说别同样叠一件衣服，我叠得比你好，因为我用家庭数据比你多。", "start": 1750.53, "end": 1757.17, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 457, "text": "嗯。", "start": 1757.17, "end": 1757.41, "speaker": "4" }, { "index": 458, "text": "所以呢，为什么要到家庭里面去？", "start": 1757.73, "end": 1759.37, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 459, "text": "因为有真实家庭数据后，你才能迭代飞轮，你才能做越越好。", "start": 1759.37, "end": 1763.45, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 460, "text": "对，所以我觉得数据包括数据管道的搭建。", "start": 1763.61, "end": 1766.61, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 461, "text": "这些东西最后会成为决胜非常重要的关键。", "start": 1767.55, "end": 1770.63, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 462, "text": "那你会预感，比如说接下来一两年，因为大家在疯狂的搞数据嘛。", "start": 1770.99, "end": 1775.23, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 463, "text": "对。", "start": 1775.47, "end": 1775.67, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 464, "text": "就是这一两年会是，就是某种决胜之年的感觉。", "start": 1775.79, "end": 1779.15, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 465, "text": "数据我其实觉得分两种。", "start": 1779.43, "end": 1780.75, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 466, "text": "嗯。", "start": 1780.99, "end": 1781.23, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 467, "text": "甚至分三种。", "start": 1781.67, "end": 1782.51, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 468, "text": "第一种是正儿八经的数据，比如说我就叠个衣服，现在很多数据工厂就是就叠衣服嘛。", "start": 1782.91, "end": 1787.07, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 469, "text": "但是呢，数据还有第二种是 corner case 就叠这个衣服的时候，这条桌缺了一个腿，或者一个腿不稳，那我叠衣服的时候老老窜对吧？", "start": 1787.15, "end": 1795.19, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 470, "text": "对。", "start": 1795.27, "end": 1795.39, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 471, "text": "这种理论上你不会在工厂里面搭一个这么，因为这种情况那就千变万化了，这个实在是多得不得了对吧？", "start": 1796.07, "end": 1801.27, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 472, "text": "嗯。", "start": 1801.27, "end": 1801.43, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 473, "text": "就 corner case。", "start": 1801.47, "end": 1802.11, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 474, "text": "这种实际还得在家里面，你才能够真正的学到。", "start": 1802.76, "end": 1806.6, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 475, "text": "所以我才觉得这个为什么实际的场景是非常重要的。", "start": 1806.8, "end": 1809.88, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 476, "text": "然后还有第三种数据，也是现在很多人忽略掉的。", "start": 1810.08, "end": 1813.0, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 477, "text": "与活物互动的数据，与人互动，与动物互动。", "start": 1813.76, "end": 1817.92, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 478, "text": "你在工厂里面，你会跟一个小孩互动吗？", "start": 1818.64, "end": 1821.2, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 479, "text": "你不会去训跟小孩互动吧？", "start": 1821.44, "end": 1822.8, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 480, "text": "嗯。", "start": 1822.8, "end": 1823.0, "speaker": "4" }, { "index": 481, "text": "对吧？", "start": 1823.08, "end": 1823.4, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 482, "text": "但这个其实很重要，你看我们是在家里面，80%场景就是跟人在互动啊。", "start": 1823.4, "end": 1827.48, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 483, "text": "那你跟不同年龄的人，跟不同种族的人，不同性别的人，方式有有差异，对吧？", "start": 1827.68, "end": 1832.72, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 484, "text": "而且这个千变万化，这怎么去采这些数据呢？", "start": 1832.8, "end": 1835.64, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 485, "text": "对吧？", "start": 1835.68, "end": 1835.92, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 486, "text": "所以你更要。", "start": 1835.92, "end": 1836.6, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 487, "text": "一定要拿到真实的情况，你才能够 cover 到这些，否则你的数据就只是就是这个世界百分一百，你你只拿到其中的百分之一。", "start": 1837.07, "end": 1845.11, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 488, "text": "因为咱们在做的事情，我理解啊，和 sunday 在美国他们做的事情还是有一点相似的。", "start": 1845.35, "end": 1851.19, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 489, "text": "然后 sunday 发布的时候，我自己是觉得挺震撼的。", "start": 1851.55, "end": 1855.11, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 490, "text": "我不知道你们看到那个产品，大概几个月前发的时候，有带给你们哪些启发？", "start": 1855.43, "end": 1860.63, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 491, "text": "我们觉得挺有意思的哈，有一些，其实我 surprise 的是一个在美国做的公司，居然还做硬件哈，这个确实是 surprise。", "start": 1860.75, "end": 1868.67, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 492, "text": "而且我觉得它有些巧思哈，包括比如说相机位置的设置啊，对吧？", "start": 1869.37, "end": 1876.33, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 493, "text": "包括比如说对外形的设计的一些思考啊，包括比如说一种乌密的素材方式啊。", "start": 1876.89, "end": 1885.29, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 494, "text": "嗯。", "start": 1885.41, "end": 1885.61, "speaker": "4" }, { "index": 495, "text": "我觉得有一些地方还是有有一些巧思的。", "start": 1885.69, "end": 1888.57, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 496, "text": "当然因为产品没拍卖哈，这个也很难实际去评价，但是从这些方面去看，包括他们一些 act 的一些方案啊，当然很没有开源，你很难去评价哈，但是我觉得是确实加入很多自己的思考的。", "start": 1888.77, "end": 1902.57, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 497, "text": "嗯。", "start": 1902.57, "end": 1902.77, "speaker": "4" }, { "index": 498, "text": "因为刚才咱们在聊这个数据捕捉嘛，对吧？", "start": 1903.24, "end": 1905.36, "speaker": "4" }, { "index": 499, "text": "数据采集，其实 sunday 做了一个 skill capture glove 对吧？", "start": 1905.4, "end": 1908.72, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 500, "text": "就技能捕捉手套。", "start": 1908.76, "end": 1909.84, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 501, "text": "是是是。", "start": 1910.0, "end": 1910.28, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 502, "text": "然后你们会有类似的这样的。", "start": 1910.36, "end": 1912.2, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 503, "text": "所以我们其实为什么要进家庭呢？", "start": 1912.24, "end": 1913.68, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 504, "text": "我觉得最好的方式是能收集到最真实的 corner case 就最真实的，它不是摆出来的。", "start": 1913.68, "end": 1919.12, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 505, "text": "所以这是为什么我我们很想把机器人先弄到家里去，哪怕先租到家庭里面去。", "start": 1919.36, "end": 1924.0, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 506, "text": "那你会采取一个非常激进的低价策略吗？", "start": 1924.4, "end": 1926.96, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 507, "text": "比如说就是赔本卖，主要我现在就是要铺开进到尽可能多的家庭，因为这是构建未来的，因为数据意味着护城河，对吧？", "start": 1927.0, "end": 1934.92, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 508, "text": "构建未来的护城河的一个办法。", "start": 1934.96, "end": 1936.8, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 509, "text": "看市场的变化情况，对，但早期可能贴着本卖。", "start": 1936.96, "end": 1940.68, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 510, "text": "嗯。", "start": 1941.04, "end": 1941.28, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 511, "text": "对。", "start": 1941.4, "end": 1941.6, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 512, "text": "同时呢，就比如说别人采数可能要花很多钱，但我们至少是贴着本过去的。", "start": 1942.06, "end": 1947.38, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 513, "text": "对，使得这个飞轮转起来。", "start": 1947.46, "end": 1949.46, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 514, "text": "你预测会有人就是搞大补贴吗？", "start": 1949.54, "end": 1952.82, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 515, "text": "因为今天资本市场那么的热，好像大家补贴得起了。", "start": 1952.82, "end": 1956.3, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 516, "text": "对。", "start": 1956.62, "end": 1956.66, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 517, "text": "你预感会有人这么干吗？", "start": 1956.94, "end": 1958.38, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 518, "text": "我从两个方面来讲哈。", "start": 1958.7, "end": 1959.86, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 519, "text": "第一呢，首先你得把它还不是个纯大脑的事，ok，对吧？", "start": 1960.26, "end": 1964.94, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 520, "text": "你要权杖做到消费级，我觉得首先大家都达到这个水平的情况下，才有可能到达补贴，但这个确实需要时间。", "start": 1965.02, "end": 1971.58, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 521, "text": "嗯。", "start": 1971.7, "end": 1971.94, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 522, "text": "第二呢？", "start": 1972.14, "end": 1972.74, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 523, "text": "啊，当然补贴这个事啊，也是有一定可能性。", "start": 1973.3, "end": 1976.46, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 524, "text": "如果有很多人做到我们这个程度的话，但我觉得可能还要花很相当一段时间到我们的程度，对吧？", "start": 1976.87, "end": 1982.39, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 525, "text": "但就目前现在这个市场热度，我还不认为达到那个程度，因为我毕竟经历互联网。", "start": 1982.99, "end": 1987.95, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 526, "text": "互联网那个时代的这个融资金额确实可能比现在的这哪怕机器人的领域的融资金额可能还要大一个汇率。", "start": 1989.03, "end": 1998.39, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 527, "text": "都是以美金计价。", "start": 1999.07, "end": 2000.23, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 528, "text": "嗯。", "start": 2000.39, "end": 2000.63, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 529, "text": "现在都是以人民币计价。", "start": 2000.79, "end": 2001.91, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 530, "text": "嗯。", "start": 2002.07, "end": 2002.27, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 531, "text": "所以呢，这个比如说以前融10个亿美金，现在可能融10个亿人民币。", "start": 2002.35, "end": 2006.87, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 532, "text": "你们最多的的时候融了多少？", "start": 2006.99, "end": 2008.59, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 533, "text": "我们当时融不算最多的，比如说一轮融个几亿美金吧。", "start": 2009.04, "end": 2011.76, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 534, "text": "嗯。", "start": 2011.8, "end": 2011.96, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 535, "text": "但当时其实在线教育有很多人一轮融个十亿美金，二十亿美金。", "start": 2012.32, "end": 2015.4, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 536, "text": "嗯。", "start": 2015.8, "end": 2016.08, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 537, "text": "就一轮哈。", "start": 2016.12, "end": 2016.88, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 538, "text": "所以我才说这个疯狂状态还没到那个，但我觉得如果机器人一旦 ready 就非常 ready 很多人看到我们这个竞价啊，就觉得不错，那我觉得倒是有这个可能。", "start": 2017.04, "end": 2025.0, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 539, "text": "对，所以你现在怎么看当下的这个融资的热度？", "start": 2025.76, "end": 2029.56, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 540, "text": "啊，当下的融资热度分两个角度讲。", "start": 2030.28, "end": 2034.12, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 541, "text": "嗯。", "start": 2034.24, "end": 2034.4, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 542, "text": "首先很多人说有泡沫，但我觉得肯定是有一定泡沫。", "start": 2034.44, "end": 2038.52, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 543, "text": "嗯。", "start": 2038.8, "end": 2038.96, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 544, "text": "因为没有泡沫呢，一个行业很难起来，那肯定是因为泡沫超前于这个行业的发展。", "start": 2039.12, "end": 2045.12, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 545, "text": "那这个行业才有更多人才的涌入，涌入才有可能把它怼出来。", "start": 2045.77, "end": 2048.77, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 546, "text": "然后呢，因为我我毕竟创业过周期的人哈，就有这个感受，就是说其实很多行业啊，它都是要创业周期的。", "start": 2048.85, "end": 2055.93, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 547, "text": "这泡沫呢，是在每个周期的上面，对吧？", "start": 2056.21, "end": 2059.13, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 548, "text": "但最终会掉下去。", "start": 2059.13, "end": 2060.17, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 549, "text": "但是机器人这个行业呢，因为你看未来二十年到通用机器人，就你可以看到一个确实存在的场景什么的，就是到时候世界上所有的公司都是机器人公司。", "start": 2060.33, "end": 2071.01, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 550, "text": "一个便利店老板是个人，下面很多都是机器人，就每个公司都必须是机器人公司，不是机器人公司你就不行了。", "start": 2071.69, "end": 2077.85, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 551, "text": "这种未来是可预见的未来，只不过时间问题。", "start": 2078.5, "end": 2080.82, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 552, "text": "它中间的泡沫呢，它是个一上一下，对吧？", "start": 2080.94, "end": 2084.26, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 553, "text": "比如今天这个泡沫很大，啪，这个刺破了掉下来，但是它一定是个曲折向上的。", "start": 2084.38, "end": 2089.9, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 554, "text": "今天如果你说从融资和资本上，我觉得它是在一个周期，但是它也不是最终。", "start": 2089.94, "end": 2094.38, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 555, "text": "嗯。", "start": 2094.46, "end": 2094.66, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 556, "text": "所以我核心是要穿越周期，对。", "start": 2094.66, "end": 2096.66, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 557, "text": "那在你看来，今天这些融到那么多钱的机器人公司，哪些是更有可能穿越周期活下来的？", "start": 2097.06, "end": 2104.02, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 558, "text": "它身上需要具备哪些要素？", "start": 2104.22, "end": 2105.74, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 559, "text": "对，我觉得穿越周期这个事还不是今天融个20个亿就解决的问题啊。", "start": 2106.18, "end": 2112.18, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 560, "text": "就你必须长期来说 sustainable 的，你有自己的一个商业模式，否则的话，一年亏几十个亿很简单。", "start": 2112.38, "end": 2118.62, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 561, "text": "再说的家庭机器人，你觉得从今天到咱们真的进入千家万户，这个中间最大的障碍有哪些啊？", "start": 2119.01, "end": 2128.05, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 562, "text": "你指的是所有人都用，对吧？", "start": 2128.45, "end": 2130.53, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 563, "text": "那个时候你要切到所有人的需求，一定是个非常通用的机器人，对吧？", "start": 2130.53, "end": 2133.97, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 564, "text": "但是它这个过程会有一个迭代的过程，因为数据的问题，因为你如果没有拿到足够多的数据，你又无法更通用，你又无法升级自我，对吧？", "start": 2134.53, "end": 2143.73, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 565, "text": "所以呢，一开始呢，我觉得就是谁能把机器人放，到家里面去，而且大家喜欢它，会一直使用它。", "start": 2144.21, "end": 2150.33, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 566, "text": "嗯。", "start": 2150.57, "end": 2150.85, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 567, "text": "让它这个飞轮转起来。", "start": 2151.05, "end": 2152.29, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 568, "text": "我觉得这是最难的第一步啊。", "start": 2152.48, "end": 2154.32, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 569, "text": "嗯。", "start": 2154.4, "end": 2154.44, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 570, "text": "这是最难的第一步，因为一旦飞轮能够转起来，后面的很多都是等待时间的发展，模型的调优。", "start": 2154.6, "end": 2162.08, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 571, "text": "嗯。", "start": 2162.2, "end": 2162.48, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 572, "text": "数据的累积。", "start": 2162.92, "end": 2163.68, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 573, "text": "对，但核心是第一个飞轮必须转起来。", "start": 2164.4, "end": 2166.44, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 574, "text": "但它要到什么样的这种所谓的阈值，它才转起来了呢？", "start": 2166.88, "end": 2171.28, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 575, "text": "比如说你放1000台进去，它算转起来吗？", "start": 2171.28, "end": 2173.32, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 576, "text": "还是放10万台，放100万台才叫转起来？", "start": 2173.32, "end": 2175.52, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 577, "text": "对，这里面也取决几个因素哈，包括模型的升级。", "start": 2175.8, "end": 2179.92, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 578, "text": "嗯。", "start": 2180.2, "end": 2180.28, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 579, "text": "模型本身需要多少数据，或者本身需要多少高质量数据，或者 dirty 的数据能不能用。", "start": 2180.52, "end": 2185.2, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 580, "text": "所以我觉得第一次模型的升级，包括对数据讲要求，数据采集方式的变化，是不是更友好？", "start": 2186.02, "end": 2191.1, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 581, "text": "包括错误的数据，如果你去纠正它，是不是也算一个好的，好的数据。", "start": 2191.18, "end": 2196.74, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 582, "text": "觉得消费者对它现在有一些顾虑需要打除吗？", "start": 2197.02, "end": 2200.74, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 583, "text": "比如说大家会觉得有个机器人在家里很不安全啊。", "start": 2200.78, "end": 2204.46, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 584, "text": "其实我觉得中国人对于新鲜事物的接受度还是挺高的，相对来说，我都相对欧美人来说，比如说你看我们之前每次在公园下棋，那都是很多老人围了一里三层外三层的，然后每次都是最后被保安赶走了。", "start": 2204.86, "end": 2220.78, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 585, "text": "哦，你们有把机器人送去公园下棋。", "start": 2222.42, "end": 2224.22, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 586, "text": "有啊，很多，有时候我们放到楼下，哇，就马上围过来好多老人。", "start": 2224.3, "end": 2227.42, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 587, "text": "如果我买一台机器人回家。", "start": 2227.54, "end": 2229.1, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 588, "text": "我可以带它出门遛弯吗？", "start": 2229.63, "end": 2231.39, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 589, "text": "如果没有坎的话是可以的，但如果有坎那是不太行。", "start": 2232.43, "end": 2236.15, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 590, "text": "就理论上只要是有残疾人的这样的通道就可以，对不对？", "start": 2236.31, "end": 2239.67, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 591, "text": "对对对对。", "start": 2239.71, "end": 2240.35, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 592, "text": "嗯，这个挺有意思的，因为现在没有什么法规的限制，对吧？", "start": 2240.59, "end": 2243.91, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 593, "text": "说我不能带机器人出门。", "start": 2243.95, "end": 2245.31, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 594, "text": "啊，对你，你只要不要带出门，和围上太多人就可以了。", "start": 2245.47, "end": 2248.35, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 595, "text": "okok 哎，因为咱们在准备这一期播客之前，其实我也和你的这个联合创始人路易斯，包括这个投资人就真格基金的缇娜都有交流过啊，都有问过他们就是有什么建议啊，这一期内容要怎么做。", "start": 2248.43, "end": 2260.83, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 596, "text": "然后，路易斯其实提到一个很有趣的点，就他认为你经历了双减，打个引号，就是有点像灭顶之灾之后。", "start": 2261.28, "end": 2269.32, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 597, "text": "这次创业的风格彻底变了，因为路易斯和你一起经历了这所有的创业的旅程吧，你自己觉得你变了吗？", "start": 2269.32, "end": 2276.88, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 598, "text": "我觉得可能在朝着一个本来就应该去的方向变化吧。", "start": 2277.2, "end": 2282.64, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 599, "text": "那原来没有在朝那个方向去吗？", "start": 2283.12, "end": 2285.32, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 600, "text": "原来也有，但我可能缺了某个东西，但可能经历的这些事让我把那缺的东西补上去，变得更加完整了。", "start": 2286.12, "end": 2295.0, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 601, "text": "那是什么东西呢？", "start": 2295.24, "end": 2296.52, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 602, "text": "那个能用语言把它描述出来吗？", "start": 2296.52, "end": 2298.52, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 603, "text": "两个东西哈。", "start": 2299.46, "end": 2300.1, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 604, "text": "嗯。", "start": 2300.22, "end": 2300.42, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 605, "text": "第一个是关于坚持这个东西呢，我觉得我现在对一些方向就是一开始会看得更久，但是一旦做会更加坚持。", "start": 2300.78, "end": 2310.1, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 606, "text": "嗯。", "start": 2310.58, "end": 2310.82, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 607, "text": "我觉得哈。", "start": 2310.82, "end": 2311.46, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 608, "text": "然后呢，第二个事呢，就是我觉得我对于起伏这件事会从一个更高的方向去看。", "start": 2312.22, "end": 2319.74, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 609, "text": "这是什么意思呢？", "start": 2319.82, "end": 2320.7, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 610, "text": "是说起伏不太会影响到你了？", "start": 2320.74, "end": 2322.58, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 611, "text": "我有时候会从第三者的角度去看待这件事事情。", "start": 2322.86, "end": 2325.46, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 612, "text": "ok。", "start": 2325.74, "end": 2325.9, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 613, "text": "啊，不是把自己放在这件事情里面去看。", "start": 2326.42, "end": 2328.3, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 614, "text": "这要怎么做到？", "start": 2328.7, "end": 2329.66, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 615, "text": "以前的经历确实遇到一个事就很着急。", "start": 2330.18, "end": 2332.62, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 616, "text": "嗯。", "start": 2332.9, "end": 2333.14, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 617, "text": "就非常着急，很容易焦虑哈，就特别容易焦虑，因为我我这个人本来就很容易焦虑。", "start": 2333.22, "end": 2336.98, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 618, "text": "但是呢，后来经历了很多，就就就更大的风浪以后啊，很多事情呢，你只要看起来呢，哎，虽然很难，但是呢，你如果站在未来往回头看，你会发现这件事其实就这么回事，对吧？", "start": 2337.55, "end": 2352.67, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 619, "text": "但是你如果老站在现在往后面看呢，你老觉得这个事很大，今天就要过不去了。", "start": 2352.79, "end": 2359.71, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 620, "text": "我现在会从另外一个角度去看这件事，这样可以看得更完整，而且看得更持久，也看得更清楚。", "start": 2360.35, "end": 2366.07, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 621, "text": "就你会把自己放到未来，再来看现在，就会发现很多时候是轻舟已过万重山的感觉。", "start": 2366.43, "end": 2372.51, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 622, "text": "没错。", "start": 2372.67, "end": 2373.03, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 623, "text": "嗯。", "start": 2373.59, "end": 2373.87, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 624, "text": "那这种能力或者这样的这个心态和双减的那个经历是有关的吗？", "start": 2374.27, "end": 2379.23, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 625, "text": "嗯，也有一定关系。", "start": 2379.67, "end": 2381.03, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 626, "text": "因为有些时候有人会讲说这个一个就是企业家就焦虑，其实也是一种品质。", "start": 2381.55, "end": 2388.67, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 627, "text": "是。", "start": 2388.99, "end": 2389.07, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 628, "text": "吧，就是他完美主义，或叫他就一定要这个去纠正一些组织里面或者产品上面的问题和 bug 但是如果你变得那么的这个能够和这些问题和解。", "start": 2389.15, "end": 2402.43, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 629, "text": "对。", "start": 2402.71, "end": 2402.95, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 630, "text": "你会担心这是也是一个问题吗？", "start": 2402.99, "end": 2405.51, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 631, "text": "啊，是这样的，我以前做在线教育的时候啊，确实有些在线教育公公司做得比我们大，比我们好。", "start": 2405.99, "end": 2410.83, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 632, "text": "后来我就知道有些创始人，他确实比我淡定。", "start": 2411.61, "end": 2413.89, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 633, "text": "因为我焦虑的时候，我的策略会变得短视。", "start": 2414.77, "end": 2418.57, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 634, "text": "嗯。", "start": 2418.93, "end": 2419.25, "speaker": "4" }, { "index": 635, "text": "我会选择当下的最优解，而不会选择两年后的最优解。", "start": 2419.57, "end": 2423.85, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 636, "text": "所以我可能赢在了这个月，但是我输在了两年。", "start": 2424.89, "end": 2429.85, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 637, "text": "但现在不是了，我觉得很多时候我会跳出来，就是说，ok，焦虑它是一件事，那这件事有没有解决方案？", "start": 2430.13, "end": 2436.97, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 638, "text": "有，这么做，那就这么去做吧。", "start": 2437.09, "end": 2439.45, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 639, "text": "有方案以后就不要焦虑了，员工就很怕你焦虑，高管很怕你焦虑，老板今天上了个商学院回来，马上战略发生变化。", "start": 2439.69, "end": 2446.89, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 640, "text": "听完这节课，很焦虑，说我们要做人才变革，马上引住几个人，然后开始大刀阔斧，那人家很害怕。", "start": 2447.34, "end": 2454.54, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 641, "text": "你能想到一个具体的例子，就是比如说一个在焦虑时候做的决策，他可能在当下这个月让你赢了，但是两年之后输了。", "start": 2454.78, "end": 2462.98, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 642, "text": "我记得我们当时是在线一对一，在这个领域确实做得非常牛啊，占据了百分之七十的 market share。", "start": 2463.06, "end": 2469.86, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 643, "text": "嗯。", "start": 2470.06, "end": 2470.22, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 644, "text": "就后来都远超第二名，拉了非常大一截。", "start": 2471.02, "end": 2473.94, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 645, "text": "嗯。", "start": 2474.3, "end": 2474.5, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 646, "text": "后来呢，有个新的形态出来，叫在线大班课。", "start": 2475.66, "end": 2478.42, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 647, "text": "嗯。", "start": 2478.66, "end": 2478.9, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 648, "text": "其实呢，有些人会说，在大帮客是更终局的模式，因为它面对更多人，它的这个毛利更高，它理论上更好，对吧？", "start": 2480.29, "end": 2488.45, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 649, "text": "但是呢，我也想做，因为我觉得这确实是一个更好的模式，就很多股东就会开始说了。", "start": 2489.25, "end": 2496.49, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 650, "text": "这个一堆这个仗还没打完。", "start": 2497.21, "end": 2499.01, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 651, "text": "嗯。", "start": 2499.17, "end": 2499.41, "speaker": "3" }, { "index": 652, "text": "你要去打大帮客的仗，对吧？", "start": 2499.81, "end": 2502.09, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 653, "text": "那大家也都不是吃素的。", "start": 2502.17, "end": 2503.89, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 654, "text": "嗯。", "start": 2503.97, "end": 2504.13, "speaker": "3" }, { "index": 655, "text": "就只干一件事，对吧？", "start": 2504.29, "end": 2505.53, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 656, "text": "你干这个干那个，那你干他的时候会不会你被第二名超了呀？", "start": 2505.53, "end": 2509.01, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 657, "text": "战斗还没结束呢，小组赛还没结束呢，对吧？", "start": 2509.37, "end": 2511.97, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 658, "text": "那有些股东又说，那你要去干那个，那个大十倍，对吧？", "start": 2512.98, "end": 2517.18, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 659, "text": "公司市值一下子能翻多少，对吧？", "start": 2517.46, "end": 2519.42, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 660, "text": "非常不同的意见。", "start": 2519.54, "end": 2520.38, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 661, "text": "非常不同意见，那你就很纠结，但这个时候你会双线作战，你最后你发现你那个事肯定做不好，因为别人干那个事，他专心一意就干那个事，看清楚了，干那个事就干那个事。", "start": 2520.5, "end": 2528.62, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 662, "text": "嗯。", "start": 2528.98, "end": 2529.14, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 663, "text": "你不是这样的，对吧？", "start": 2529.18, "end": 2530.14, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 664, "text": "所以虽然你赢得了最后赢得 ed 这场战，但你输了一个更大的市场。", "start": 2530.3, "end": 2534.14, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 665, "text": "嗯，有意思。", "start": 2534.54, "end": 2535.78, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 666, "text": "如果你今天要对那些也经历过创业失败，或者经历过类似双减这样打击的创业者们说一句话，你会能想到有这样的一句话说给大家吗？", "start": 2536.18, "end": 2545.9, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 667, "text": "对于经历过一些挫折的人啊。", "start": 2546.89, "end": 2549.33, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 668, "text": "嗯。", "start": 2549.37, "end": 2549.57, "speaker": "4" }, { "index": 669, "text": "或者的创业者。", "start": 2549.65, "end": 2550.89, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 670, "text": "我觉得就你遇到的这个挫折哈，或者遇到的一个巨大的这个变故，往往只是逼迫你去做一件，其实你真正要做的事情。", "start": 2551.81, "end": 2565.77, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 671, "text": "我觉得这个人生哈，因为我们不可能走在两条船上，所以你永远不知道哪个是最好的选择。", "start": 2566.09, "end": 2572.69, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 672, "text": "像我们只能相信我们选择这个一定是最好的，哪怕经过挫折，他是帮我们做选择。", "start": 2573.37, "end": 2578.37, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 673, "text": "我们必须找到自洽。", "start": 2579.72, "end": 2580.52, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 674, "text": "嗯。", "start": 2580.96, "end": 2581.16, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 675, "text": "我们只有自己找自洽，我们才能活得更好。", "start": 2581.24, "end": 2583.76, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 676, "text": "就有可能失败，其实是一种外在的力量在帮你做选择，帮你排除一些可能性。", "start": 2584.28, "end": 2590.04, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 677, "text": "对。", "start": 2590.2, "end": 2590.48, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 678, "text": "哇，我没想到是这样的一个感觉很有哲学意味的一个答案。", "start": 2591.12, "end": 2596.64, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 679, "text": "前两年确实也是想了很多，对。", "start": 2597.48, "end": 2599.48, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 680, "text": "嗯。", "start": 2599.56, "end": 2599.84, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 681, "text": "你后悔过去十几年这个创业里面有哪些没做的事吗？", "start": 2600.2, "end": 2604.4, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 682, "text": "有那么就是一想到后悔这个词就会冒出来的一件事或两件事吗？", "start": 2604.4, "end": 2608.64, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 683, "text": "我这个人其实很少后悔哈。", "start": 2608.88, "end": 2610.68, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 684, "text": "嗯。", "start": 2610.8, "end": 2610.92, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 685, "text": "比如说有些人会说早知道怎么样怎么样，对吧？", "start": 2611.0, "end": 2614.8, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 686, "text": "但是我我是。", "start": 2615.04, "end": 2615.84, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 687, "text": "从来不说这话的人，几乎哈，不说绝对，几乎。", "start": 2616.86, "end": 2620.02, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 688, "text": "因为我觉得其实人生没有第二种选择啊。", "start": 2620.82, "end": 2624.38, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 689, "text": "嗯。", "start": 2624.46, "end": 2624.66, "speaker": "4" }, { "index": 690, "text": "就算你后悔做一件事，你怎么知道它里面没有更多的后悔呢？", "start": 2624.9, "end": 2630.1, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 691, "text": "对吧？", "start": 2630.22, "end": 2630.58, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 692, "text": "所以我一直觉得我们还是要相信自己做的选择一定是最恰当的。", "start": 2630.7, "end": 2635.98, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 693, "text": "我觉得更重要的是你找自己的自洽。", "start": 2636.06, "end": 2639.3, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 694, "text": "嗯。", "start": 2639.58, "end": 2639.78, "speaker": "4" }, { "index": 695, "text": "我的选择跟我的过往，跟我即将要去的路，我个人觉得都是匹配的，无论我现在周遭如何。", "start": 2640.14, "end": 2648.38, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 696, "text": "再低落，再低迷，再惨再好，任何时候我觉得都要首先要向上看，所以有人做得那么好，对吧？", "start": 2649.0, "end": 2657.2, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 697, "text": "你的企业虽然比如说一百亿，但是还有一千亿的，对吧？", "start": 2657.2, "end": 2661.16, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 698, "text": "你看完你会谦虚，觉得我其实我是个 nobody 但同时你也要向下看，啊，我也不是一无是处，人就是要活在一个自洽里面，然后这样你才能活得久，对啊，然后活得好，活得好，无论你做企业还是工作。", "start": 2661.24, "end": 2675.0, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 699, "text": "你才能够就真正地做好，因为人最后还是要活得久嘛。", "start": 2676.16, "end": 2679.92, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 700, "text": "哈哈哈。", "start": 2680.0, "end": 2680.92, "speaker": "4" }, { "index": 701, "text": "嗯，这就是像你讲的，就可能现在感觉更加的这种平静、淡定，因此在做一些战略的时候，也可能会做出更长久的、更长期健康的战略。", "start": 2681.67, "end": 2691.39, "speaker": "4" }, { "index": 702, "text": "是的。", "start": 2691.51, "end": 2691.87, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 703, "text": "这次做未来不远和之前做掌门一对一，感觉像两个完全不一样的人了。", "start": 2692.03, "end": 2697.15, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 704, "text": "嗯。", "start": 2697.63, "end": 2697.87, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 705, "text": "所以创业对你的意义是不是也有了非常大的变化？", "start": 2697.91, "end": 2700.71, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 706, "text": "对。", "start": 2701.19, "end": 2701.59, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 707, "text": "这个我觉得创业本来是一种修行哈。", "start": 2702.23, "end": 2705.43, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 708, "text": "当然很多东西都是修行，工作也是修行，对吧？", "start": 2705.79, "end": 2708.39, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 709, "text": "你送外卖也是一种修行，其实我觉得很多东西都修行，那修行的东西不一样。", "start": 2708.79, "end": 2712.15, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 710, "text": "当然创业这个事呢，从第一次选择这条路的时候，我就知道这肯定是与众不同的。", "start": 2712.76, "end": 2716.6, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 711, "text": "嗯。", "start": 2716.84, "end": 2717.04, "speaker": "3" }, { "index": 712, "text": "而且他的修行的东西可能也不太一样。", "start": 2717.12, "end": 2719.28, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 713, "text": "我研究生的时候上的是那个上海高金，非常好的一个国内可能 topone 的商学院，因为当时招的都是清华北大、复旦交大这种学院的第一名才能去。", "start": 2719.48, "end": 2729.72, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 714, "text": "但是呢，在那学院念了一年后我就走了，我就出来创业了。", "start": 2730.24, "end": 2733.04, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 715, "text": "但是也很多人极度费解，而且也当时拿到了比较好的嗯，当年的麦肯锡哈，对吧？", "start": 2733.08, "end": 2739.08, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 716, "text": "居然还不去去创业，对吧？", "start": 2739.24, "end": 2741.08, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 717, "text": "但我当时选择了，我知道这是不归路，肯定是不归路，而且肯定有很多问题，很多麻烦，很多失败，我也知道创业成功率就百分零点一。", "start": 2741.16, "end": 2750.4, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 718, "text": "对吧？", "start": 2751.06, "end": 2751.3, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 719, "text": "但是既然选择了前方，就就只顾风雨兼程哈。", "start": 2751.3, "end": 2754.38, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 720, "text": "我觉得现在说如果是创业的人哈，就都要有这个准备，你本来就是跟别人不太一样。", "start": 2754.5, "end": 2760.58, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 721, "text": "所以你觉得这一次和上一次最大的变化，如果说一个点的话，你能想到是什么吗？", "start": 2760.82, "end": 2765.94, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 722, "text": "最大的变化，我觉得看东西看得更周全和更长远吧。", "start": 2766.54, "end": 2773.7, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 723, "text": "比如说你说资本泡沫哈，我觉得有一部分吧，资本其实是有点炒股心态。", "start": 2773.82, "end": 2778.9, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 724, "text": "嗯。", "start": 2779.06, "end": 2779.26, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 725, "text": "对，为什么我这么说呢？", "start": 2779.54, "end": 2780.58, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 726, "text": "哪里火我肯定要凑一下，然后弄一下，然后快进快退，对吧？", "start": 2780.7, "end": 2783.98, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 727, "text": "还是这样的，但是我觉得。", "start": 2784.02, "end": 2786.1, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 728, "text": "最后大家也还是会回到更长期的心态去做事情。", "start": 2786.86, "end": 2789.3, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 729, "text": "对，但我也相信这是最健康的。", "start": 2789.66, "end": 2791.66, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 730, "text": "那如果比如说我们再往长期看哈，就是你要给十年之后的自己。", "start": 2791.7, "end": 2796.02, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 731, "text": "就是比如说留一个言或者许一个愿，你会希望那是一句什么样的？", "start": 2796.66, "end": 2802.1, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 732, "text": "嗯。", "start": 2802.54, "end": 2802.78, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 733, "text": "心愿或者祝福或者寄语或者问题。", "start": 2802.9, "end": 2806.22, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 734, "text": "可能会对十年之后的我说，十年前的我呢，觉得未来不远。", "start": 2806.46, "end": 2812.34, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 735, "text": "那十年后的那个时候呢，可能我原来所认为的那个未来不远的未来已经实现了。", "start": 2812.66, "end": 2820.7, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 736, "text": "但是呢，我希望哈，希望十年后的我还能继续。", "start": 2820.86, "end": 2826.38, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 737, "text": "相信还有更美好的，就是未来不远。", "start": 2827.22, "end": 2831.62, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 738, "text": "嗯，就永远有美好的未来在不远处。", "start": 2831.98, "end": 2836.34, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 739, "text": "对，给人以期待。", "start": 2836.74, "end": 2838.18, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 740, "text": "嗯，赞。", "start": 2838.46, "end": 2839.58, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 741, "text": "好的，今天非常谢谢张翼。", "start": 2840.54, "end": 2842.38, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 742, "text": "好。", "start": 2842.54, "end": 2842.58, "speaker": "2" }, { "index": 743, "text": "嗯，聊得很开心，对。", "start": 2842.82, "end": 2844.54, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 744, "text": "然后也希望这个张翼现在在创造的，他认为不远的未来早一点成为我们每个人都能感受到的一个真实的未来，有更多的这个机器人进入我们的家庭，啊，让我们过得更快乐，过得更轻松。", "start": 2844.9, "end": 2856.46, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 745, "text": "啊，也期待你再来十字路口，谢谢。", "start": 2856.94, "end": 2858.66, "speaker": "1" }, { "index": 746, "text": 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